Are the "real" Colts that much better?

[Hawg]

Dragoon knoweth that of which he speaks.

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks Hawgie! I appreciate ya, and I agree with ya!  A really nice rap on that wedge would likely close things up a bit.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Hawg]

Thanks Hawgie! I appreciate ya, and I agree with ya!  A really nice rap on that wedge would likely close things up a bit.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

I remember when I bought my dragoon and I thought the arbor was correct because I put the barrel on without the cylinder and offset and the barrel lug matched the frame. It felt like it was bottomed out in the hole but you told me to give the wedge a whack and it would bind the cylinder. I tried it and sure enough it locked it up.

[ssb73q]

Hi Dragoon, I recently purchased an Uberti Leech & Rigdon made in 2017. Unlike other recently produced Uberti's the arbor and arbor hole in the barrel are tapered. The difference in the taper is 0.005" over the tapered length, and yes, the arbor is short. The taper does seem to have the arbor bottom in the barrel arbor hole. I wonder if this taper is Uberti's answer to short arbors. While the lockup is very tight, it's a bear to get the barrel off the arbor. I needed to use the loading lever to pry the barrel free. Some mild file work and fine sandpaper polish cured the overly tight barrel. I then added a set screw to the arbor end for adjusting barrel/cylinder gap.

This is just an observation I wanted to pass along.

Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Hey Richard! Hmmm .  .  .  .  they could be trying to sneak in a "fix" over time.  What's funny is, they would be "fixing" a problem that they say doesn't exist! Nice observation though .  .  .
   I never take the time to notice those things, I just automatically drop in my "gauges' to see what spacer is going to be best. There's no set size for a spacer .  .  .  .  just goes to show you they can't even maintain an accurate screwup!! Lol  But hey, it gives me something to do!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Yolla Bolly Brad]

  I guess the manufacturers don't want to spend the time or money to have a skilled worker sitting there fitting these guns for a proper cylinder gap before they leave the factory.

[Hawg]

  I guess the manufacturers don't want to spend the time or money to have a skilled worker sitting there fitting these guns for a proper cylinder gap before they leave the factory.

Pietta does it and sells them cheaper than Uberti.  The cylinder gap may not be what different people call perfect but then no one gap will please everybody but the arbor will always be bottomed out in the hole. Maybe that's why some Pietta wedges are so difficult to remove the first time. They're proving that no matter how hard you drive it in it wont lock the cylinder up.

[Yolla Bolly Brad]

Yep, Pietta finally saw the light (between barrel and cylinder), now if Uberti would just do the same.

[45 Dragoon]

LOL !!!! Yap, that's perfect Brad!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Krylandalian]

Mike.  You worked on that Dragoon that CaptainKirk got from me didn t  you?  Did it have any problem with the base pin not fitting properly?

My point is that I had that gun for a  long time and fired it many many times and never had a problem with cylinder/barrel binding, wedge/barrel distortion or accuracy. That s  just one example.  I m  using it as an example because I think you actually worked on it.
So, if it had a  'short arbor' it never displayed any indications of having a 'short arbor' problem.  That s   really what I was and am saying. I ve  had and have one s  that have the 'short arbor' problem (binding/wedge/barrel distortions).

I misspoke when I stated my Authentic Colts don t  have a  'short arbor'. This seems to have given you ammo to rebuke and insult me ( I wasn t  'method checking' for a problem, I was simply operating/maintaining).
It would have been better for me to state,  ' . . most of mine don t  have this  'Short arbor' problem.'   In fact I stated this in the post you reacted to.

, and when you state 'Authentic' like this, in quotations, this implies you dispute the authenticity of the Colt Blackpowder Series.  There s  no other way to interprete this.  Such a  claim is contrary to fact/truth. The series are authentic. They are  continuations of production and not reproductions (production, reproduction and replica are all distinctly defined). They re  were produced by Colt/Colts contractors/sub contractors just like any other product.

[Krylandalian]

For example, I recently got a Signature Series 3rd Dragoon configured for shoulder stock (I got a stock for it too!  Can t  wait to fire it!!!).  With the wedge inserted to where it is seated properly, it closes the cylinder/barrel gap and binds the cyllinder.

I consider this one to have a 'short arbor' problem.

[Captainkirk]

Mike.  You worked on that Dragoon that CaptainKirk got from me didn't you?

He did indeed.
And I will say, the action is unreal. Much better than the new Uberti 2nd I have, which does have the short arbor issue...I have not yet addressed it.

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks Cap.!!

Kry, I used "authentic" to indicate "the Colt series". It was the word you used.  I don't think there's any one here (this forum) that would argue that they aren't. One can " read"  into anything what one wants which is one problem with using text and forum platforms. I've said more than a couple of times I understand collectors, I'm guilty of that "infection" myself!!

  The problem is, the Colt series is no different than the rest of what was offered at the time till today as far as "build". Until Pietta decided to correct the problem, their offerings were like everyone else.
Since we are here, I'll go ahead and say the Colt series revolvers are, so far, the only examples that often have the arbor hole actually break through  (too far in other words).
  So, my point isn't about authenticity of the Colt series, it's got everything to do with the title of this thread, the " that much better " part. When they were offered new,  the finish ,shape and  some hardening of the parts was "better" than its contemporary  but it still had all the "build" problems that they all had and still have! They definitely aren't Perfect . They are what they are. A continuation of the line of Colt percussion revolvers, built to a lesser degree. It doesn't make them less collectable (the stampings and the "pony" make sure of that)  but it's easy enough to see the shortcomings of the later examples.
   If the topic is pushed  further by comparing them to Uberti offerings of recent years, it  definitely gets worse! Today's action parts are the best ever put in a percussion revolver.  .  .  .  .but, it's not really fair to compare "like" objects some 40+ yrs removed.
 
  Concerning the "arbor problem". It's always there whether you experience a problem or not. Let me explain. The "connection " , if you will,  between the two assemblies IS the contact of the arbor bottoming out in the arbor hole UNDER TENSION!  When properly appointed, the harmonics generated when a shot  is fired is the same throughout the revolver.  Without this "connection", the two assemblies resonate against each other. Shooting full loads will eventually cause clearances to open and parts failure. If you shoot light loads such as in CASS competition, you may never have a " problem " but the "build" is still wrong. 
   My venture into this area became necessary when I converted my open top revolvers to cartridge shooters. Smokless powder is much more punishing than bp.  It doesn't take long to "mess up" the numbers when shooting stout loads in an ill prepared revolver .  .  .  even the Dragoons can't hold up any better than the '60 Army!  It's not the size of the dog (so to speak), it's all about the "build" of the dog!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Krylandalian]

Well, I certainly don t  see the need to have a cheering section to thank. In fact, it s  'Gangish'.

Quoting authentic seemed to be redundant. Authentic being the title of the Colt series. The tone/context seemed to show what I said.  I accept you saying you didn t  mean that.

This all got blown out of proporton/context anyway.  As you stated, the original subject of this thread is a particular point.  It seems best to maintain it.

With this,  I say, within this threads invitation to state opinion/experience etc, I see the 'real' Colts to be of better all around quality.  Compared to replicas and Signature Series.  All of which I have experience with from the practical point of view of basic operating/maintaining. Which means,

regarding the 'short arbor' problem (short arbor meaning more of the arbor barrel insert headspace and not necessarily meaning that the arbor is actually too short?), the inherent affects (cylinder/barrel gap binding, barrel/wedge distortions etc) are not practically evident.

Now, stating that some of mine don t  have the 'short arbor' problem, this could very well mean it s  not readily apparent. Meaning, although there is no binding/distortion , ,  if I am shooting an 8 group at 50 yards,, if the arbor problem was fixed, it could make the pistol more accurate. Because of the solid fitting, all working together aspects etc. 

,  AND  continuing to fire it with the arbor problem will, over time, weaken it etc. So, comparing my Dragoon that the Capt. now has, with a  'fixed arbor problem' Dragoon with the same amount of 'shoot time' over the years, could reveal a structural weakening difference.  Hmm?

[45 Dragoon]

Well, since the arbor length defines the barrel/cyl clearance, and since the 1st gen. revolvers seem to have held up after all these yrs (as many are still shot on a somewhat regular basis),  and since that is the design these revolvers should be built to, I'd say one could derive a conclusion that as long as the arbor fix is a good one - the "repaired"  revolver should have a like life expectancy. That said, hammer faces are still a little soft. That allows the possibility of there to eventually be a "fail to fire" situation and that is especially possible with those that have a cartridge conversion.  I was noticing that on my converted revolvers and fixed it with a hardened "firing plate" (as opposed to a pin) pinned to the hammer. So far, there is no noticeable wear to either the plate or the ring mounted firing pin. The plate only contacts the pin and NOT the ring it's mounted in!
  This same idea would be a good fix on a cap gun with a .0025"-.003" bbl/cyl clearance as long as the plate stopped short of contacting the nipple. 

  As for the short arbor being short or the hole too deep, take your pick. Apparently, the real Colts made in the '70s /'80s  were drilled a tad deeper than their counter parts as evidenced by the many that broke through the material (but it does allow one to actually see that it is in fact not bottoming out).   To me, the  better all around quality would include the action parts and there is actually no contest at all as to the parts in an Uberti being the best in a cap gun of any period. Not even close! Pietta uses the mim process which mostly makes a modern rendition of the old parts.  I deal with these parts on a daily basis. Colt pattern or Remington pattern, Uberti parts are far superior.
   So, I guess it's an "eye of the beholder" thing. I see them from the inside and draw my conclusions .  .  .  . 

I will say there are a lot of open tops out there today that can shoot a regular diet of max Trip7 loads, and do it every day.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks