Conversion Cylinders

[StrawHat]

Morning All,

I was having a discussion with my brother and he asked what is the fascination with conversion cylinders for C&B revolvers?  I have my thoughts but would like to hear the thoughts of the members of this brotherhood.

Why do you buy a conversion cylinder rather than just getting a cartridge revolver?

Kevin

[ssb73q]

Hi Kevin, I own at least one conversion cylinder where available for every BP revolver I own. Conversion cylinders are a continuation of the history of early firearms, especially for a time period romanticized by current culture. Shooting my BP revolvers with either C&B or cartridges throws me back in time. While the conversion cylinder firearm combination is more expensive than modern firearms of similar caliber, there is nothing more satisfying than shooting the replicas. You can either C&B or modern cartridges in the same handgun.

There are many advantages to conversion cylinders. Sometimes I want to shoot, but not want to spend the time in cleanup after shooting. Many times when I have friends or family over for shooting, I want to spend more time with them than cleaning up firearms. Then I use smokeless loadings. Of course I occasionally use BP, there is little that satisfy as much as seeing the BP smoke and the smell. I shoot my .32 S&W and .22 conversions in my basement when the weather is bad. Most indoor public ranges don't allow using BP firearms. I have an 1858 carbine where shooting with caps creates cap parts stuck in my face, not fun. Shooting that carbine with the conversion cylinders is safe and a joy to shoot. Conversion cylinders also provide the convenience of carrying minimal shooting equipment to the range.  Reloading cartridges during the off shooting season provides things to do with the shooting hobby.

Bottom line is that using conversion cylinders is convenient. That's why all movies that use BP revolvers use conversion cylinders.

Of course some people are financially bound where conversion cylinders can't be a priority in their sport. However, most all hobbies are expensive. With me, conversion cylinders isn't a financial consideration, it's a must-have to be happy issue.

We are damn lucky that the ATF has ruled the conversion cylinder as a part, not a firearm. Anyone can create an unregistered handgun with modern cartridge capability, IMO that's freedom. I use my BP revolvers with conversion cylinders much more than my modern handguns.

Regards,
Richard 

[mike116]

Richard's reasons for using conversion cylinders on C&B revolvers are good arguments and I believe many conversion cylinder purchasers do so for the same reasons.   Most believe that there is historical significance (there is) and that alone justifies their use.  I think some may be fooling themselves a little when it comes to the historical aspect.   I think the drop in conversions are not as correct as most believe.  Permanent conversions by gunsmiths were more prevalent until the factory conversions came out. 
The economics of shooting cartridges from a C&B revolver look like a good argument until you factor in the high cost of factory ammunition that is approved for use in a conversion cylinder.  If you need to gear up for handloading then the economics get even worse.   In most cases finding a cartridge revolver that is capable of handling less expensive factory ammo is not a much bigger investment than a conversion cylinder and special ammo.
As Richard stated, convenience may the biggest consideration.  Shooting the C&B revolver you favor the most with the ease of maintenance involved with smokeless powder is a definite advantage.

I purchased a drop in conversion for a revolver I won't name here and found that I preferred to use BP and a round ball in it rather than using the conversion cylinder.  Pulling the cylinder out and reloading is no better for me than loading on the gun with BP and a round ball.   Others may disagree.   I have instead decided that buying a cartridge gun will serve me better in the long run.    Maybe I will put the drop in cylinder up for sale.  It's been more than a year since I removed it from the box.

[ssb73q]

Hi Mike, what you say about the current conversion cylinders not being historically accurate is true. Most of the original conversions used rim fire cartridges. While the ammunition being used isn't historically correct for the conversions back in the day, they are consistent in function. Yes, one needs to be a handloader to economically use conversion cylinders, but using caps has been pretty expensive lately. I have been a hand loader of modern ammunition for over 50yrs.

BTW, if your conversion cylinder is a Kirst or Howell with a loading gate, I would be interested in getting a deal from you if you intend on selling it. I have been reluctant on cutting a loading opening in the frame for a conversion because I dislike the thought of turning an unregulated BP revolver into an FFL regulated firearm. However, with all the extra revolvers I now own, and already needing to have them on my pistol permit, a frame modified revolver is probably in my future. That's now on my 2016 wish list.

Regards,
Richard

[mike116]

Hi Richard,  If the conversion cylinder I own were a gated version I would have installed it on one of my revolvers by now.  It makes no difference here in Colorado since we do not have to register our firearms on a permit.   
I have the R&D 6 shot drop-in model in .45 Colt.   I may sell it but hate to part with anything I already have paid for.   It doesn't make any sense for it to sit here unused though. 

[Holeinhide]

I have 3 R&D conversion cylinders 2/ 5 round .45 colt's for my Pietta 1851's and one 6 shot for a Remmie AHHHH I said a bad word
I love all 3 of them I load .45 colt with cast Lyman 452664 255 gr with 37 grs 2F and all 3 shoot like a dream. They are no more or less of a pain to load on the range than standard BP so that is no big deal but I find the accuracy is much better. As to the why its just too easy to go from cartridge to cap and ball with the R&D"s at least so I can mix it up a bit and have some fun.  I also use the .45 to hunt with 37grs 2f it will drop a deer in its tracks at 10 paces. Yes you gotta get close but that's where the real fun is. See picks of my girls below..

[Captainkirk]

Sweet! But how come they always put the ugly girl in the top of the photo?

[ssb73q]

Hi Holeinhide, is cleanup shooting BP in cartridges easier than C&B, or about the same? Do you ever use smokeless powder with your conversion cylinders?

Regards,
Richard

[Holeinhide]

BP is BP clean up is the same as far as the gun goes. It might be just a bit easier than standard C&B due to the lack of nipples to clean, but there is the extra step of cleaning the brass for reuse. I do use smokeless powder when I don't want to deal with the clean up right away or for special loadings. For me I clean with Ballistol and water black or smokeless so not much changes other than I can leave it for a week or two with smokeless.  The real selling point for me was the range of loads I can get from a cartridge that you cant get from C&B. With the same gun I can load point of aim with a wide range of bullets to choose from. Popping rats to hunting deer it does it all.  lets see you load a plastic snake shot into the C&B, where there is load data that works with smokeless. It is hard to explain but it takes the 1851 a gun that just points so well for me and turns into a work horse. Just don't be silly and try to load Ruger only data or copper jacketed Ammo and the gun will handle it. If you want to stick with BPCR and want to down load it also likes .45 Schofield, Like I said conversion cylinders allow me to mix it up some its like getting a new Girl every time and there is no man I know that would not be happy with that

[StrawHat]

Thank you all for commenting.  What I am about to type will probably ruffle some feathers.

I have found very few gunsmiths that actually practiced the trade in the days of the conversions.  There were no "drop in cylinders" available in the 1870s.  Most of the converted revolvers had been returned to the factory for conversion and then sold through the General Store or the Hardware Store in Town.  Big cities may have had a Gun Shop,  New York, Philadelphia and St Louis certainly did.  There were one or two gunsmith shops west of the Mississippi but they concentrated on long rifles.

I see the current craze as a way to get around the spirit of the law.  Many posts I read go something like this.  "...I just got a C&B revolver.  Can't wait to buy a conversion cylinder for it... ".  The cylinders, even the converted revolvers are usually cut for cartridges that were not available in the original revolvers.  It is merely a way to buy a handgun and not register the sale.

I have many C&B revolvers.  I have two revolvers that came from the factory converted for cartridges following the Richards system.  Even those were not cut for the exact cartridge, 44 Colt.  The cartridge is the same but the barrel has a smaller bore to accommodate a 43 caliber bullet rather than a 45 caliber bullet.  A little detail but still a detail. 

Drop in cylinders are convenient to fire, reload and clean but not historically correct.

Kevin

[ssb73q]

Thank you all for commenting.  What I am about to type will probably ruffle some feathers.

I have found very few gunsmiths that actually practiced the trade in the days of the conversions.  There were no "drop in cylinders" available in the 1870s.  Most of the converted revolvers had been returned to the factory for conversion and then sold through the General Store or the Hardware Store in Town.  Big cities may have had a Gun Shop,  New York, Philadelphia and St Louis certainly did.  There were one or two gunsmith shops west of the Mississippi but they concentrated on long rifles.

I see the current craze as a way to get around the spirit of the law.  Many posts I read go something like this.  "...I just got a C&B revolver.  Can't wait to buy a conversion cylinder for it... ".  The cylinders, even the converted revolvers are usually cut for cartridges that were not available in the original revolvers.  It is merely a way to buy a handgun and not register the sale.

I have many C&B revolvers.  I have two revolvers that came from the factory converted for cartridges following the Richards system.  Even those were not cut for the exact cartridge, 44 Colt.  The cartridge is the same but the barrel has a smaller bore to accommodate a 43 caliber bullet rather than a 45 caliber bullet.  A little detail but still a detail. 

Drop in cylinders are convenient to fire, reload and clean but not historically correct.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, IMO you had your reply typed before you asked the question to open this thread. 

To follow your logic, we shouldn't use and enjoy our replica BP handguns because they aren't exact historical copies? Because the metallurgy isn't the same? We shouldn't use and enjoy our BP firearms because the powder and caps are different than back in the day?

This is the last time I will let you goat me.

Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Hey Kevin,
  I'm going to say you are right as far as what you are saying (about conversions). For me the difference is, the conversions of old were chambered for the "current" cartridges and cartridges them selves were in their infancy. Fair enough.
I personally don't want to load rimfire cartridges, outside lubed cartridges and the oddball cartridges, I'll stick with what they did originally and go with what's current, easy, and most of all, safe! Safe would be including modern ordinance steel that will let you "play with loads" safely. No ruffled feathers here! In fact, no matter what anyone says, my "modern converted" revolvers are my most favorite revolvers I've ever owned. And that, to me, is what trumps "exactly copying" for the sake of " the way they were back then". Would you feel better if you shot inferior materials when better is available?  Outhouses are still available and in use in places, but I've never had one at home and wouldn't.  Change is, more times than not, better if only safer. I know some old timers argued that they would never poop under the same roof they ate under!! ( come to think of it, depending on the area the roof covered, I may not either!!!)

On the firearm note, you make it sound like folks that assemble/make their own firearms as somehow "shady".  There is nothing wrong (or illegal) with a person manufacturing their own firearm! You just have to register it if you sell it, and/or you must get a manf.ffl license if you intend to sell / distribute your manufactured firearms.  But, it is nice to know that if the real " Goons" ever go door to door "collecting " the guns on the list that you filled out paper work on at purchase (which is to me an infringement!) I'll at least have a few things better than a stick or a rock to take back my government!! When your government makes it law, that you are a criminal if you want to protect yourself and your loved ones (even from government) they cease to be your government and they become your master.  This is the sole reason the 2nd Amendment exists!!

It doesn't scare me WHO might have a firearm, I fear the "WHO" that wants to take mine away because someone else used one in a crime.
 So, on that note , maybe only slightly ruffled!! Lol!  Anyone can think what they want, its when they "force" their belief on me that things could get ugly.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[ssb73q]

Hi 45 Dragoon, I did notice that you didn't reply to Kevin's original question. You sir were a lot smarter than me. 

Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Well Richard, you're right somewhat, but, if you look at what I said - I love ALL the reasons mentioned in my answer.

 The reason is two fold. It's first and foremost the COOLEST thing to do to an open top (correct to the tee or not!!). A VERY close second is exactly what I said. I made my own firearms for me!!! I know about them. I love being free to do so and anyone that has problem with it can "smooch " me where the sun don't shine!!! People that think that way would have been against the founders of this country and if left up to them, we would be subjects today !!!!! (It's bad enough that half of the people want to be taken care of by the rest of us as it is!!!)

That clear enough Richard? Lol!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[ssb73q]

Hi Mike, when it comes to conversion cylinders on BP revolvers, I think this famous quote is appropriate:

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."

To each his own. 

Regards,
Richard