EMF Paterson on sale

[ssb73q]

Hi G Dog, the Paterson arbor is 0.004" smaller diameter than the opening arbor hole of the barrel, 0.434". There theoretically shouldn't be a fit problem if the barrel hole is actually 0.004" larger for the full depth. I ordered a 0.434" reamer to make sure that the hole is the same dimension all the way in.

I have noticed that the metal of the barrel at the rear of the wedge is coining and narrowing the barrel arbor hole at that location. A file was used to remove the excess metal from the inside of the hole at the wedge opening. Shooting the Paterson has required the wedge to be seated deeper after every shooting outing. I have already widened the wedge a number of times to have a snug barrel fit to the arbor. I'm beginning to wonder if 20gr powder loading is too much for the Paterson.

My last shoot tested lubricants. Lubricants didn't do well to minimize fouling. It's time to go the other direction and try no lubes at all. I will load up the cylinders with different powder, 15gr. Triple 7, Black Mz, and Olde Eynsford will be tested to see if there is a powder that minimizes fouling when no lube is used.

I have seen other reports were removal of the Paterson barrel was difficult because of fouling. The rear of the barrel bore opening is flat. Later Colt designs created a forcing cone and a narrow external end at the forcing cone. Colt also added a spiral cut in the arbor to take up fouling in later gun models. In hindsight, the Paterson was a revolver with design failure built in. The Paterson put Colt into bankruptcy.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, tested the Paterson with different powders and no lube at all. Big mistake!! Triple 7 and Black Mz allowed good cylinder rotation, but needed some effort to wedge the barrel off the arbor. Olde Eynsford locked up both the cylinder and prevented barrel removal from the arbor. I needed to soak the barrel and frame to get the barrel off the arbor.

What was learned? Arbor lubrication helps and Ballistol seems to be the best to allow barrel separation from the Paterson arbor.

While not a useful experiment to solve my barrel removal issue, it's always fun to shoot the Paterson. I did notice that the Triple 7 had some good intensity (recoil) and would be useful for serious Paterson use. Even with 15gr of powder the wedge got battered again and will need to be hammered back into shape.

Live and learn, if you want a BP revolver that will shoot and shoot without issues, get the 1851. The 1851 is probably the best revolver that Colt ever produced.

While the Paterson has issues, it returns me to a time when the Comanche faced the Paterson. It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

[Yolla Bolly Brad]

Hello Richard,
         I believe you may have found the problem in that the arbor hole or perhaps the arbor itself is tapered in the wrong direction. This would allow the powder residue to load up deep inside the hole and then there'd be no clearance to separate the two parts. Perhaps tapering the arbor down a few thousands towards it's end might help the problem.  And you're probably considering cutting a forcing cone in the barrel breech and grooving the arbor. Best to try one thing at a time like you're doing so you can really isolate the main culprit and then we can all gain from that knowledge.
  It sounds like that wedge is made of dead soft steel and could use some heat treat.

Brad

[Captainkirk]

While the Paterson has issues, it returns me to a time when the Comanche faced the Paterson. It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

I think I know. While I've not had the opportunity to shoot it yet, Every time I cycle the action on my Winchester '66 I am transported back to overturned wagons, fending off waves of incoming charging savages on pinto war ponies.
Some book or film must be buried deep in my subconscious.

[G Dog]

 It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

I’m confident that most all the guys here know just what you’re talking about.  We grew up knowing.  It’s genetic memory, American collective unconscious or something Jungian like that.  Peace & Love for everyone ... but still ...

[sourdough]

Even with 15gr of powder the wedge got battered again and will need to be hammered back into shape.

Live and learn, if you want a BP revolver that will shoot and shoot without issues, get the 1851. The 1851 is probably the best revolver that Colt ever produced.

Regards,
Richard

As I previously stated, I have zero Paterson experience. I totally agree with your statement concerning 1851 Navy .36 "type" replicas, primarily Pietta (I have 8, primarily Confederate types). If the wedge is being battered when you shoot it, to me that is indicative of a problematic fit between the arbor length, arbor recess depth, and wedge. I see no other reason as to why the wedge is being battered if it is properly driven into place (as Sam Colt insisted) prior to shooting the gun.

Just a thought, but you might contact Mike Brackett  http://www.goonsgunworks.com/ for his valued opinion.

Regards,

Jim

[ShotgunDave]

While the Paterson has issues, it returns me to a time when the Comanche faced the Paterson. It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

I think I know. While I've not had the opportunity to shoot it yet, Every time I cycle the action on my Winchester '66 I am transported back to overturned wagons, fending off waves of incoming charging savages on pinto war ponies.
Some book or film must be buried deep in my subconscious.

Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one...........

[ssb73q]

Hi, this is a photo of an 1851 barrel on the left and the Paterson barrel on the right:



Both barrels were aligned to have the ends of the barrel (forcing cone) aligned. Notice that the arbor hole for the 1851 is set back from the barrel end a much larger distance than the Paterson. Also notice that the end of the 1851 barrel that is against the cylinder chamber is much smaller than the Paterson barrel. No wonder why the Paterson is more prone to fouling compared the the 1851.

Measurements shows that the arbor and arbor hole diameter for both the 1851 and Paterson is the same. Using a hole gauge showed that the arbor hole in Paterson is the same diameter from hole entrance to hole bottom. There is a slight narrowing of the hole at the ends of the wedge opening in the Paterson barrel. As the recoil deformed the wedge, it also deforms the barrel metal at the wedge opening. When I get the reamer, the reamer should be able to make the whole length of the Paterson arbor hole uniform.

Regards,
Richard

[Yolla Bolly Brad]

Hi, this is a photo of an 1851 barrel on the left and the Paterson barrel on the right:



Both barrels were aligned to have the ends of the barrel (forcing cone) aligned. Notice that the arbor hole for the 1851 is set back from the barrel end a much larger distance than the Paterson. Also notice that the end of the 1851 barrel that is against the cylinder chamber is much smaller than the Paterson barrel. No wonder why the Paterson is more prone to fouling compared the the 1851.

Measurements shows that the arbor and arbor hole diameter for both the 1851 and Paterson is the same. Using a hole gauge showed that the arbor hole in Paterson is the same diameter from hole entrance to hole bottom. There is a slight narrowing of the hole at the ends of the wedge opening in the Paterson barrel. As the recoil deformed the wedge, it also deforms the barrel metal at the wedge opening. When I get the reamer, the reamer should be able to make the whole length of the Paterson arbor hole uniform.

Regards,
Richard

  A picture speaks a thousand words. It looks like Sam Colt learned what not to do from the Patterson. Hope you come up with a fix.

[Captainkirk]

Looks like the forcing cone serves more than one purpose...

[sourdough]

Looking at that (an eye-opener to me), maybe there is not a "fix". I think Colt got it right with the 1848 Dragoon (the Walker not withstanding) and went from there. Even the 1848 Pocket went through a few transformations (frame length, forcing cone length, trigger guard, et al) before becoming the 1849 Pocket, the most produced Colt pistol of the percussion era, and the ACW had nothing to do with that.

Regards,

Jim

[ssb73q]

Hi, the battering of the wedge on front edge is due to the coining of the wedge by the front of the arbor slot. The force trying to separate the barrel from the frame is the reason for the coining. Most of the deformation on the wedge is on the smaller area of the arbor. That would be expected. In the past we have discussed hardening the wedge to minimize coining. Even tried to harden the wedge. Franky, I would rather have the low cost replaceable wedge deform than have the more expensive barrel wedge opening deform. Hammering it back into shape does work harden the wedge a bit.

My theory on why I see more wedge deformation in the Paterson compared to the other Colt models is that the larger surface area of the Paterson barrel end against the cylinder produces more barrel separation force due to gas pressure on firing than other Colt models.

On another subject, Uberti has a nice shiny Paterson grip finish, the Pietta is dull. While I have may Paterson apart I intend on Tung Oil refinishing the grip.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, the used eBay 0.434" solid carbide ream arrived today. The ream was chucked up in a drill chuck, cutting oil put on the ream, and hand rotated into the barrel arbor hole. Very little metal was removed, just the oil on the ream black from sub thousandths metal removed. The arbor now slips into the barrel arbor hole as slick as can be.

One lube I haven't yet tried in the Paterson is KY Jelly. 

Regards,
Richard

[ShotgunDave]

You should have thought of K-Y BEFORE you reamed the hole.................

[ssb73q]

Hi, one of my Paterson's grips was given four coats of Tung Oil, rubbed with steel wool between coats. I think the grips came out nicely:

Now back to shooting it.

Regards,
Richard