Federal definition

[AntiqueSledMan]

This has really bothered me so after some in-depth searching this is what I found on the topic of Conversion Cylinders.

Many people claim, "If you modify the frame, it's now a regulated firearm". I can find nothing about this on the ATF webpage.

What I did find on the ATF site was,

Federal definition (from GCA'68) of an antique firearm:
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

I'm not a lawyer, but would take this as meaning if a Conversion Cylinder is installed on a Percussion Revolver, the said
Revolver would be classified as an FFL Regulated Firearm. It makes no statement about cutting a port in the frame, is does say
"designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition", or "readily converted to fire fixed ammunition".

I did find a forum with the Old Kirst Paperwork pictured, which does state,
"Permanent alteration to the frame of a percussion revolver, to accommodate cartridge use, will re-classify that revolver to a firearm and as such must be transacted as a firearm thereafter".

Personally I think Kirst placed this statement to cover their backsides, as I can not find anything on the ATF site.

I looked over the literature which came with my Howell Cylinder & it states about the same as the Kirst.

The ATF definition includes "uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade", which I can find no such list.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/atf-guidebook-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-and-implements-war/download







I must ad, I found a forum where a Gun Shop Owner had quit selling Black Powder Revolvers because he had gotten Nabbed for shipping a Percussion Revolver and a Conversion Cylinder in the same package without filing as an FFL Regulated Firearm.

[ssb73q]

Hi Antique, I bought an 1863 Remington that had a conversion cylinder installed. The frame had not been modified to accept modern ammunition. The GunBroker seller wanted to ship to an FFL dealer. I suggested that he remove the conversion cylinder and ship both the gun and conversion cylinder separately. That was done, no FFL dealer involved.

I do believe that modifying a frame to allow modern ammo to be used makes that frame an FFL dealer involved gun.

IMO there is a real question on if a BP revolver with conversion cylinder installed becomes a modern regulated handgun. In my state of New York just because I have the ability to fire my BP revolvers C&B, those revolvers need to be on my concealed carry pistol permit. Since they are on my permit, using a conversion cylinder in those revolvers isn't any issue. However, I must never try to sell a BP revolver with conversion cylinder installed directly to another person. As pointed out above, there is a workaround, separate the parts.

One needs to be very careful in my state since any firearm issue will result in the revocation of one's pistol permit.

Regards,
Richard

[AntiqueSledMan]

Richard,

I am not going to try & go State by State, I've asked local Police & Permit to Carry Instructors, nobody really knows.

But according to the ATF site, if you have a Conversion Cylinder installed you have an FFL Regulated Firearm.
Does that mean removing it, removes the FFL requirements? Which is what your claiming by using the Howell.
Also, if you use a gated Conversion Cylinder, reinstalling the Percussion Cylinder makes it impossible to load
fixed ammunition, so why would a loading port change that?
All of my Percussion Revolvers have a port for capping, It would just be enlarged.

I believe I'm okay with cutting a port in the side of the frame for a loading gate, according to the ATF.

[mazo kid]

Guess I am only muddying the water but I was interested in a '58 Remmie on GunBroker a while back; this one was listed and described as having the conversion cylinder installed and so needed to be shipped to an FFL. I suggested (as Richard did) that he remove the cylinder and ship separately. He replied that he couldn't do that because of the way the gun was being auctioned. The seller was an FFL dealer so I think he was correct. The cylinder itself is only a non-serial numbered part so can be mailed. I take it to mean that the frame needs to be permanently altered, the conversion cylinder installed, and then the gun becomes a regulated firearm. There are lots of gray areas in the BATFE code!

[ssb73q]

Richard,
 
All of my Percussion Revolvers have a port for capping, It would just be enlarged.

I believe I'm okay with cutting a port in the side of the frame for a loading gate, according to the ATF.

Hi Antique, In theory that sounds good. The only issue is if you have a conversion cylinder available that fits. We went through similar logic about a short barreled rifle if a shoulder stock and conversion cylinder is available. It doesn't need to be assembled, but just the parts available. While there is recent legal rulings that somewhat eliminates that concern, there is always a chance one could find them in the legal fight of their life.

I intend on doing a loading gate job on my new Pietta 1860 in the future, but understand that the revolver would then be FFL regulated.

I agree, this all terribly confusing. The answer is to contact the ATF and ask the questions. I don't want to do that for fear of hearing something that hurts my hobby. Hillary got away for "no intent", that works for me.

Regards,
Richard 

[ssb73q]

Richard,
 
All of my Percussion Revolvers have a port for capping, It would just be enlarged.

I believe I'm okay with cutting a port in the side of the frame for a loading gate, according to the ATF.

Hi Antique, IMO you would be OK if you didn't simultaneously own a gated conversion cylinder that could be installed in the revolver.

Regards,
Richard