1860 2nd Gen Loading Issues

[tljack]

I'd just ram them in as far as they will go and them taking a hacksaw, cut them off flush..................   

[bigted]

I used this one here:

https://www.thejeffersonarsenal.com/product-page/44-johnston-dow-pistol-conicals-60rds

According to the site it’s made using the Era’s Gone mold. Once I got that adjustable measure to test load without using the flask spout I was able to load it with 30 grain. Still working on paper cartridges, tho.

I will urge you to please not use the (or ANY spout on a FLASK) spout that is attached to any kinda flask of any kind. You are holding a HANDGERNADE.

As an experiment try this if you have not done so already;

- pour your 3F real black powder into a tablespoon.
-now set the spoon down in a safe spot.
-take a LONG fireplace match and lite the spoonful.
-observe how fast it burns

Now imagine your hand wrapped around even a small flask full of black powder igniting from even the smallest ember left in any of those fired chambers.

To be fair, I and others have been doing this for decades and to my knowledge never has this happened. BUT ... do you want to gamble with YOUR hands ... you know ... the things you eat with, blow your nose with, dress yourself with and maybe the most important ... wipe your bumm with?

Best to use a separate held measure  that holds maybe 30 GRAINS  ... which will still char a finger a bit ... but not enough to disable you.

Food for thought at least.

[Captainkirk]

Thanks for that reminder, Ted! We all need our fingers...Safety can't be overstessed.

[Ambaryerno]

So I think I'm going to need to take the Colt in to a smith. Even with a cartridge former specifically designed for 30 grain (shorter but wider cartridge than the Cap and Ball one), and taking the cylinder off to start it to make sure the cartridge is going in straight, it still won't seat quite enough to load paper cartridges with that charge. So maybe the chambers just aren't quite or deep enough or are just a little too small diameter (didn't the original Colts have a slightly larger chamber?). Also, the loading window probably needs to be enlarged (I could swear I read the 2nd Gens had the correct size window, but I guess not).

[bigted]

I know that even with round ball loads, 30 grains is about the limit in my 44's. Remington New Army might hold a bit more but all my Colts have this 30 grain RB load at max.

Conicals hold much less (I should clarify this holds true of the pointed Colt bullets) powder ... if memorie holds ... around 24 to 26 grains ... make ramming the point to be even with the cylinder face.

[Ambaryerno]

I'm using Johnston & Dows which SHOULD load 30 grain in the Colt 1860 Army.

So I do have an update since we finally had a good day for shooting. I fired four loads altogether. The first was preloaded with my paper cartridges and the other three were with loose powder. The results:

1) Good news: The paper I was using for my cartridges (some were flash paper, some were the nitrated paper I got from Buffalo Arms) ignites just fine, so no danger of misfires there.
2) Bad news: Even with loose powder only some of the chambers can load 30 grain with the J&Ds and still allow the bullet to seat all the way and allow the cylinder to turn. I know for certain one did, but I gave up and switched to 25 before checking all six. I just didn't feel like removing the cylinder to flatten the tips enough to fit. :-P
3) Annoyance: I kept having caps on the unfired chambers pop off when I shot. I'm using #10 Remingtons.

Also, twice I had a chamber fire successfully, but the cap didn't allow the hammer to fall completely. This locked the cylinder because the gun still thought it was cocked. Both times I was able to clear with a little bit of work.

I didn't hit the first target at all. I kind of scattered across the remaining three, but considering I'm both dealing with powder loads and haven't shot regularly in forever, I'm happy just to hit SOMEthing. :-P

I've got the day off on Monday, so I'm going to take it in to see if anything can be done with the chambers (I may make up six more cartridges so they have something to test/work with). I think the loading window is also too small (it was really a struggle trying to load the cartridges. I'd thought the Colt 2nd Gens had a larger window, but I guess not) so I'll have that enlarged as well.

[ShotgunDave]

Man that sucks that you're having such an inordinate amount of trouble with that gun. Sounds like it was a Friday 5:00 deal.

[Hawg]

Also, twice I had a chamber fire successfully, but the cap didn't allow the hammer to fall completely. This locked the cylinder because the gun still thought it was cocked. Both times I was able to clear with a little bit of work.

You're not fully seating the caps. Use a wood dowel to push them on. Caps are not pressure sensitive. Some people even push them on with the hammer.

[bigted]

Those JD bullets take up too much room for me to get anywhere near 30 grains under them. Your 25 grain load is what I use and even that is a full chamber by the time I get the nose even with the cylinder mouth.

Just curious if ANYBODY gets to load 30 grains under those Johnson n Dow bullets in an 1860 Colt of any kind. Maybe in a Remington new model Army ...

[washbuster]

At .460 they aint gonna fit in a .452 hole , I have to size mine down to get them to load

[ShotgunDave]

I easily get 30grn of FFFg under the J&D bullets in my Pietta 1860 Army revolvers.

[Ambaryerno]

The smith quoted to have the work on mine finished tomorrow. They were going to make adjustments to match the chambers and loading window to the measurements of the original pieces, so I should know more soon

[Ambaryerno]

So, bumping this with an update...

The smith I took it to earlier this year...did nothing. He said all the measurements on the chambers were correct to the originals, and refused to do anything about the loading window because he wasn't comfortable with it. I'm not pleased about that.

So I tried shooting with 25 grain cartridges, not long after, and THOSE wouldn't seat all the way, either! However those were being just as big of a pain to fit into the loading window as the 30 grain, so I figured that was likely the problem because I couldn't get them to start straight.

After some searching once I had time I took my gun in to a different smith last month to have both issues looked at. Although they were able to enlarge the loading window so now the 25 grain cartridges fit properly under the lever, they weren't able to do anything about the chamber itself because of the grooves for the ratchet/lock mechanism, (drilling out the back of the chambers would make the metal too thin) so they couldn't make it take the 30 grain cartridges.

Whatever, I still had plenty of 25 grain made up, so today I went back to the range...

...and even though I can now start them level, the damn gun STILL won't seat the 25 grain cartridges all the way.

I honestly don't know what to do anymore. My powder charge is already lighter than what the original cartridges were, and the damn things still won't fit.

I'm using the nitrated paper from Buffalo Arms. Could it be that the paper is too thick? I had flash paper, which is much thinner, however it doesn't keep safely, and I just had to dispose of a whole package that was going bad. Is there anyone else who makes nitrated paper with thinner sheets?

Or do I have to reduce my powder load even FURTHER, even though it's already well below historical loads? Could there be a difference between modern black powder and what was available then that could account for this (I'm using Goex 3F)? Like maybe the older powder compressed more readily?

I also noticed the paper isn't burning up completely like it's supposed to, but leaving rings in the chambers, which obviously doesn't help loading subsequent rounds (the ones I tested at home this morning to test the fit of the window ALMOST seated completely). I'm currently using silicone silicate to hold everything together as on the historical cartridges, but should I be using something else?

I'm just about at the end of my rope with trying to get this to work.

[G Dog]

A bit of paper residue is normal.  It won't imped reloading.

You can open up the loading port with a file or use a Dremel.  Just break that sharp corner. A little cold blue and you're in business.

[Captainkirk]

Try beauty salon curling papers. They don't need to be nitrated.