Conversion Cylinders

[ShotgunDave]

Shotgun, did you do that Kirst yourself?

Yessir. Indeed I did.

[Captainkirk]

Interesting that this conversation carried over off-line today...question came up about a Kirst-type cartridge-eating Dragoon.
First, I don't believe Uberti (or anyone else) makes a cartridge Dragoon. If I'm wrong, please correct me!
Second, a Dragoon with a full charge of 45-50gr of 3F would likely pack quite a bit more wallop than a 30-35gr 3F cartridge. At least, that's my impression, having a Howell's conversion cylinder for my Walker. There is no comparison between my 35gr BP .45LC handloads and 60gr of loose 3F behind a .454 round ball. While the Dragoon holds less BP than the Walker, I would think the results would likely be the same on a conversion...IF sticking to the standard case size of the .45LC. At this point it would be fair to interject the possibility of using a longer .45 case, but that's a discussion for another day.
Lastly, from my own perspective, I find the Dragoon to be somewhat of a handful. Not as much as the Walker, mind you, but heavy enough that I prefer a two handed Weaver-style grip when shooting...which boils down to (IMHO) finding the Army Colt to be the 'right' revolver platform for the Kirst conversion.
I know Mike has done a bunch of experimentation in this arena, and would like his or anyone else's input on the practicality of such a conversion.

[Zulch]

I agree with you Cap. Love to hear more information and experience with mods to a Dragoon

[Captainkirk]

I agree with you Cap. Love to hear more information and experience with mods to a Dragoon

Thanks, Zulch. So many guns, so little time...

[Zulch]

Oh, btw, i have 2 dragoons both of which are ASM's. So if that makes it more of a challenge let me know someone?

[45 Dragoon]

BC, love the look of those early cyls.!!
Captain,  you are correct, nobody offers a converted Dragoon  or Walker. As far as loads, I can't say anything about bp loads but smokeless 21K psi 45C  ammo is rather impressive,  +p's are amazing and I don't think you can get there with bp.  I'm gonna be sneaking up on 25 /27K psi in the Dragoons (45C +p +) which opens up a whole new world for the handgun hunter.
 The Army 1860 shooting 45acp +p's is almost a perfect marriage between revolver and ammo!!

  Z, no experience with converting ASM's but I have an 1860 ASM  in the shop that is waiting on a new trigger with an extended sear ( new part just for conversions!)! That should allow the revolver to be correctly timed.

As for weakening the frame, the loading port for the gate shouldn't be of concern.  But, the original conversions should be bp only.  Modern "factory conversions" should only be fired with tier 1 loads since they are built like the originals.  The originals had a BIG cut in the floor of the frame to accommodate the circular conversion ring  (That is a big strength compromise for the frame!!)!!  That right there is the genius of the Kirst cyl. It leaves the frame structure intact and adds a full support ring to the recoil shield for firing
 support.

I'll give some suggestions for  installation of the Kirst cyls.

Mike

[Zulch]

  Z, no experience with converting ASM's but I have an 1860 ASM  in the shop that is waiting on a new trigger with an extended sear ( new part just for conversions!)! That should allow the revolver to be correctly timed.

As for weakening the frame, the loading port for the gate shouldn't be of concern.  But, the original conversions should be bp only.  Modern "factory conversions" should only be fired with tier 1 loads since they are built like the originals.  The originals had a BIG cut in the floor of the frame to accommodate the circular conversion ring  (That is a big strength compromise for the frame!!)!!  That right there is the genius of the Kirst cyl. It leaves the frame structure intact and adds a full support ring to the recoil shield for firing
 support.

I'll give some suggestions for  installation of the Kirst cyls.

Mike
[/quote]

Howdy Mike. I noticed on the Kirst site that you can order a conversion for an 1860 and you get a hand for free. Is that a good practice? To replace the existing hand?

[Captainkirk]

If I'm not mistaken, I think that's the new duplex hand?

[ssb73q]

Hi, a few comment on conversion cylinders from an idiot amateur gunsmith. If you are doing a gated conversion for the 1851 use the Howell conversion cylinder that has the backplate screwed in. The Kirst 1860 gated conversion cylinder for the 1860 is a box of worms. That backplate floats where getting a good barrel gap is difficult. All manufactured drop in conversion cylinders work well. IMO start with drop in conversion cylinders and avoid creating a regulated firearm. This idiot will now go back to sleep.

Regards,
Richard

[Zulch]

Hi, a few comment on conversion cylinders from an idiot amateur gunsmith. If you are doing a gated conversion for the 1851 use the Howell conversion cylinder that has the backplate screwed in. The Kirst 1860 gated conversion cylinder for the 1860 is a box of worms. That backplate floats where getting a good barrel gap is difficult.

Richard, good afternoon. Thank you for your comments. That is very interesting, your comment on the Kirst for the 1860. You obviously speak from experience on the Kirst/1860. The backplate floats meaning the backplate is not mounted? I have never used Kirst nor a Howell conversion. Thanks again, Z

[Captainkirk]

Please don't go back to sleep! Help us clear these crickets out of the room!

[Bishop Creek]

I agree with Richard, a cap and ball revolver is classified as a non-firearm, but the moment you place a conversion cylinder in it, it becomes a firearm under Federal law, take it out, and it is a non-firearm again. Which is why I prefer drop in cylinders plus I enjoy shooting it as a cap and ball more than using cartridges.

[Zulch]

Thank you Bishop Creek. Appreciate your thoughts. The more information I can get the better so I can weigh all the pros and cons before I dive into a conversion. Thanks again.

[G Dog]

So far as the statement goes, it
is true that percussion non-fixed ammo
revolvers are not considered firearms.
But that’s true only for very limited and narrow  purposes.  The categories are so narrow that it’s misleading and inaccurate to to call them ‘not firearms’. Shipping, background checks and
waiting periods are about the only delimiters. 

Convicted felons, minors, those adjudicated insane, druggies, some prescription holders, brandishing, carrying (concealed or open, loaded or otherwise), enhancements for use in committing
a crime, negligent entrustment, state storage requirements, domestic violence, red flag laws and on and on.

They are  ‘firearms’ for a lot more purposes than they are considered not to be.  Calling them ‘not firearms’ doesn’t begin to describe the whole reality.

[Bishop Creek]

I am well aware of those definitions G Dog. It’s true that if I were to fire off my black powder cap and ball revolver in my backyard, I could be arrested for for firing a firearm in a residential area, city limits, etc. Plus in many states, felons are not allowed to possess a muzzle loading gun. All I was stating was the basic Federal laws regarding muzzle loaders. And that even pertains to California with some of the strictest guns laws in the country. If one alters the frame of a cap and ball revolver by cutting a loading port, it becomes a firearm even without a conversion cylinder in place.