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Author Topic: Conversions-the scoop  (Read 944 times)

Offline Zulch

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2024, 09:59:02 AM »
I think that is spot-on, Zulch.
I suppose it is quite possible that folks might have a real special, or favorite gun and they would like the option to be able to swap out cylinders and go back and forth? Like someone else had mentioned the steel used in the black powder guns is inferior to the cartridge open tops and RM's. I also reckon if one did ruin the barrel of the black powder gun by shooting cartridge smokeless powder they could always buy a new barrel. It just seems like a costly venture to me. Just my 2 cents.

Offline Clydesdale4x4

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2024, 11:02:53 AM »
I think that is spot-on, Zulch.
I suppose it is quite possible that folks might have a real special, or favorite gun and they would like the option to be able to swap out cylinders and go back and forth? Like someone else had mentioned the steel used in the black powder guns is inferior to the cartridge open tops and RM's. I also reckon if one did ruin the barrel of the black powder gun by shooting cartridge smokeless powder they could always buy a new barrel. It just seems like a costly venture to me—just my 2 cents.

Every time I go out, which isn't often, capping is a struggle that day, or the kids get bored before I've gone through two cylinders in the time their deceased Maw would empty two 30rd AR mags... I've looked at conversion.

But when I maths the "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" equation.  I don't shoot enough to make it make sense, and I like these for what they are.
If I need a cartridge gun that badly, there are 1911s to pick from, 1875's, 1873's, Vaqueros, all the things.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 12:07:52 PM by Clydesdale4x4 »

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2024, 12:11:53 PM »
I think that is spot-on, Zulch.
I suppose it is quite possible that folks might have a real special, or favorite gun and they would like the option to be able to swap out cylinders and go back and forth? Like someone else had mentioned the steel used in the black powder guns is inferior to the cartridge open tops and RM's. I also reckon if one did ruin the barrel of the black powder gun by shooting cartridge smokeless powder they could always buy a new barrel. It just seems like a costly venture to me—just my 2 cents.

Every time I go out, which isn't often, capping is a struggle that day, or the kids get bored before I've gone through two cylinders in the time their deceased Maw would empty two 30rd AR mags... I've looked at conversion.

But when I maths the "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" equation.  I don't shoot enough to make it make sense, and I like these for what they are.
If I need a cartridge gun that badly, there are 1911s to pick from, 1875's, 1873's, Vaqueros, all the things.
That's exactly the point I've been trying to make!
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2024, 12:23:48 PM »
The 'conversion era' was a brief hiccup in time that really only ran from around the end of the ACW (1865) until the advent of the first factory big-bore cartridge revolvers, the Colt 1871-72 Open Tops, and then onto the Model T of firearms, the Colt 1873 and Remington 1875. Yeah, those earlier conversion guns probably kept on ticking, but the percussion era was effectively done for at that point. So if you are trying to scratch an itch to fill that short period of time with a conversion gun, go for it. Just bear in mind that the cartridges they were pushing through them were all black powder.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 12:48:15 PM by Captainkirk »
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Offline Zulch

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2024, 12:27:17 PM »
are you shooting smokeless in you recently acquired Open Top Cap? I think that it okay to do so unless I am mistaken?

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2024, 12:34:31 PM »
Both, Tim. I shoot BP at the BP range. They don't allow smokeless anyway. I only load the smokeless carts so I can shoot at the indoor range during winter months when the outdoor BP range is closed.
How about you? What are you shooting through your open tops?
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Offline Zulch

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2024, 01:32:48 PM »
I'm just shooting smokeless boxed ammo that I bought at LGS.  158 grain in the Richards Mason .38 spl  and 245 grain in my RM .44spl. I truly hope to be reloading one of these days.

Offline WECSOG

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2024, 02:18:05 PM »
I think that is spot-on, Zulch.
I suppose it is quite possible that folks might have a real special, or favorite gun and they would like the option to be able to swap out cylinders and go back and forth? Like someone else had mentioned the steel used in the black powder guns is inferior to the cartridge open tops and RM's. I also reckon if one did ruin the barrel of the black powder gun by shooting cartridge smokeless powder they could always buy a new barrel. It just seems like a costly venture to me—just my 2 cents.

Every time I go out, which isn't often, capping is a struggle that day, or the kids get bored before I've gone through two cylinders in the time their deceased Maw would empty two 30rd AR mags... I've looked at conversion.

But when I maths the "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" equation.  I don't shoot enough to make it make sense, and I like these for what they are.
If I need a cartridge gun that badly, there are 1911s to pick from, 1875's, 1873's, Vaqueros, all the things.
That's pretty much the way I see it too. But, I do like to tinker and build my own guns. Also, there's the whole paperwork issue. That seems to be the elephant in the room, and I totally get it.
As I mentioned before though, I hate it when I'm in a discussion about a cap and ball revolver and someone tries to completely take over the conversation and turn it into a discussion of conversion cylinders. I can talk about either cap and ball, or conversions. But it seems that some of those who crash discussions have no interest whatsoever in a cap and ball gun, except as a cartridge conversion.

An extreme example is the cap and ball NAA Companion/Super Companion mini revolver. Even if you already have the revolver, it is cheaper to just buy the dedicated cartridge version than to buy a conversion cylinder. And, the conversion cylinder is more of a hassle to operate. That leads me to believe that the large number of people who crash those particular discussions are convicted felons. Which makes me want to tell them that when they get caught carrying that around, they will still go back to prison just as surely as if they were packing a black market Hi Point.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2024, 02:59:30 PM »
I think that is spot-on, Zulch.
I suppose it is quite possible that folks might have a real special, or favorite gun and they would like the option to be able to swap out cylinders and go back and forth? Like someone else had mentioned the steel used in the black powder guns is inferior to the cartridge open tops and RM's. I also reckon if one did ruin the barrel of the black powder gun by shooting cartridge smokeless powder they could always buy a new barrel. It just seems like a costly venture to me—just my 2 cents.

Every time I go out, which isn't often, capping is a struggle that day, or the kids get bored before I've gone through two cylinders in the time their deceased Maw would empty two 30rd AR mags... I've looked at conversion.

But when I maths the "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" equation.  I don't shoot enough to make it make sense, and I like these for what they are.
If I need a cartridge gun that badly, there are 1911s to pick from, 1875's, 1873's, Vaqueros, all the things.
That's pretty much the way I see it too. But, I do like to tinker and build my own guns. Also, there's the whole paperwork issue. That seems to be the elephant in the room, and I totally get it.
As I mentioned before though, I hate it when I'm in a discussion about a cap and ball revolver and someone tries to completely take over the conversation and turn it into a discussion of conversion cylinders. I can talk about either cap and ball, or conversions. But it seems that some of those who crash discussions have no interest whatsoever in a cap and ball gun, except as a cartridge conversion.

An extreme example is the cap and ball NAA Companion/Super Companion mini revolver. Even if you already have the revolver, it is cheaper to just buy the dedicated cartridge version than to buy a conversion cylinder. And, the conversion cylinder is more of a hassle to operate. That leads me to believe that the large number of people who crash those particular discussions are convicted felons. Which makes me want to tell them that when they get caught carrying that around, they will still go back to prison just as surely as if they were packing a black market Hi Point.

  Sorry, but if you can't own a firearm,  you can't make one either.  It'd be easier / cheaper to steel one than buy one  .  .  .  you know, things that make felons in the first place .  .  . 

Mike

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2024, 03:32:34 PM »
The 'conversion era' was a brief hiccup in time that really only ran from around the end of the ACW (1865) until the advent of the first factory big-bore cartridge revolvers, the Colt 1871-72 Open Tops, and then onto the Model T of firearms, the Colt 1873 and Remington 1875. Yeah, those earlier conversion guns probably kept on ticking, but the percussion era was effectively done for at that point. So if you are trying to scratch an itch to fill that short period of time with a conversion gun, go for it .  .  .

  I did, and that "itch" lead to me doing what I do for a living today .  .  .  no matter how "long" the "hiccup" was, ( during the whole 40+ yrs of c&b era revolvers) it IS a "thing" or there wouldn't be  "factory" offerings from the manufacturers.  I really don't want to call Walt Kirst or Kenny Howell or even Taylor’s  and tell them they should "hang the conversion thing" up because it's  not  "cost effective" .

This thread was started with the idea that feathers may be ruffled  and mine are not, I'm just trying to give honest replies to what's been posted in this thread. 
  First,  the "cost thing" is a moot point  .  .  .  if you can't afford it or "justify it "  then obviously you can't or shouldn't do it.
  If all you want is a RM or an Open Top then fine but you can't buy a converted Walker or Dragoon  from the "factory ". (even though Colt converted some Dragoons). Therefore,  a DIY is your only option  OR you can send it to me  .  .  .
 What you'll get back is far superior to the  "factory" alternative  !!!.  My own "60 Armys" in 45acp  digest 45acp +p's  easily as well as my Dragoons digest 45C +p's  and more  .  .  . I would NOT shoot these loads in the "factory" pieces!!
   I've worked on ALLof the above mentioned revolvers  and can easily drill into all the "factory" versions just as easily as the "C&B" revolvers. .  .  . the "given support system" is perfectly  capable of being a perfect support system for everything offered "factory " or "aftermarket"  (aftermarket being the better default).

 Maybe "you get what you pay for"  is the better way to go  .  .  .

Mike

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2024, 04:24:47 PM »
As I mentioned before though, I hate it when I'm in a discussion about a cap and ball revolver and someone tries to completely take over the conversation and turn it into a discussion of conversion cylinders. I can talk about either cap and ball, or conversions. But it seems that some of those who crash discussions have no interest whatsoever in a cap and ball gun, except as a cartridge conversion.

I hear ya there, WECSOG. I'm not a fan of C&B revolvers just so I can turn them into cartridge revolvers, though having the ability to switch between percussion and cartridge can have it's moments. If you are walking or in areas where there are potential animal issues (e.g. bear country) I would sooner have a sidearm loaded with cartridges than a C&B. Also, (trust me) it's a whole lot easier to tote a cartridge belt or pocket full of cartridges on a woods-walk than flask, ball and caps. But one could just as easy carry a modern sidearm in place of either one, if that was the issue. I'm into C&B and black powder guns for the history, the romance (if you will) and the thrill that goes with it.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2024, 04:46:07 PM »
The 'conversion era' was a brief hiccup in time that really only ran from around the end of the ACW (1865) until the advent of the first factory big-bore cartridge revolvers, the Colt 1871-72 Open Tops, and then onto the Model T of firearms, the Colt 1873 and Remington 1875. Yeah, those earlier conversion guns probably kept on ticking, but the percussion era was effectively done for at that point. So if you are trying to scratch an itch to fill that short period of time with a conversion gun, go for it .  .  .

  I did, and that "itch" lead to me doing what I do for a living today .  .  .  no matter how "long" the "hiccup" was, ( during the whole 40+ yrs of c&b era revolvers) it IS a "thing" or there wouldn't be  "factory" offerings from the manufacturers.  I really don't want to call Walt Kirst or Kenny Howell or even Taylor’s  and tell them they should "hang the conversion thing" up because it's  not  "cost effective" .

Nor should you! I, and many others, do enjoy our C&B convertibles. Especially when they are stuffed full of black powder and a cast lead slug. That's what I grew up watching on TV as a kid.

This thread was started with the idea that feathers may be ruffled  and mine are not, I'm just trying to give honest replies to what's been posted in this thread. 
  First,  the "cost thing" is a moot point  .  .  .  if you can't afford it or "justify it "  then obviously you can't or shouldn't do it.

Naturally! If cost is your ultimate goal, then buying a Howell conversion for a gun you already own is far cheaper than buying a whole new gun from Taylor's or Uberti. A gated Kirst with ejector will probably equal or exceed the cost of a new Taylor's.

  If all you want is a RM or an Open Top then fine but you can't buy a converted Walker or Dragoon  from the "factory ". (even though Colt converted some Dragoons). Therefore,  a DIY is your only option  OR you can send it to me  .  .  .
 What you'll get back is far superior to the  "factory" alternative  !!!.

This is very much true, especially with regard to the big horse pistols. Nobody that I'm aware of sells a converted Dragoon or Walker right off the shelf. What you did to my convertible Walker is nothing short of incredible, Mike! Although I'll be the first to admit that a .45LC BP handload out of a Walker is a bit of a letdown compared to 60gr of loose black powder...Also, pulling that barrel off each time to reload the Howell is a bit of a PITA. A Konverted Walker would really be the way to go (and there's that elephant in the room again! Once Konverted, it's a modern handgun with regard to FFL, shipping and the like!)

My own "60 Armys" in 45acp  digest 45acp +p's  easily as well as my Dragoons digest 45C +p's  and more  .  .  . I would NOT shoot these loads in the "factory" pieces!!

Problem here is with the home gunsmith without your knowledge and skills, Mike. Maybe they can make it functional. The real question is "Should they?"

"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2024, 06:04:12 PM »
[quote   
  A Konverted Walker would really be the way to go (and there's that elephant in the room again! Once Konverted, it's a modern handgun with regard to FFL, shipping  . . .

[/quote]

 Nope, the only time that frame is a "firearm" is when the cylinder is installed. A modified recoil shield does not make a firearm.

Mike

   

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2024, 06:16:15 PM »
Nope, the only time that frame is a "firearm" is when the cylinder is installed. A modified recoil shield does not make a firearm.

Mike   

I know this has been a bone of contention of many discussions, in many places, by many people. Info source?
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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Conversions-the scoop
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2024, 07:55:57 PM »
Lawyers,  "folks in THE business", FFL's, .  .  .     of course ultimately, you do what you're comfortable with.