what's it take to shoot an 1860 army loose?

[caferacer]

I sold a friend my Pietta 1860 steel frame 44 revolver, (I got it used)
and it broke after a couple hundred rounds, he was using .454 and .457 round balls and 30gr-35gr of FFFg
the arbor became loose and eventually broke when the front half of the gun went flying down range 
just how durable are open top Colts? are the modern Italian copies stronger or weaker than the original's?

[mike116]

I didn't think an 1860 replica (steel frame) could hold enough powder to shoot it loose.  I think Scooby is probably right,  there could have been contributing factors resulting in the failure.

[Hawg]

+1 on what Scoob said.

[caferacer]

interesting, because the limited research I have done suggests that the arbor loosening up on an open top like the 1860 army is a somewhat common problem,  it has been suggested by some people that loading .457 balls puts excess strain on the loading lever which in turn pulls on the threads of the arbor and frame, combined with the stress of shooting a large number of full power charges, eventually leads to the arbor getting loose, it is equally possible that this was just a lemon of a revolver, or perhaps there is some other factor I have missed?  ???

[caferacer]

By all means, the .457 does put more stress over a .454 on open tops to both the loading lever and the arbor during the loading procedure. And it is the arbor and wedge that takes the brunt of force by the pressure created upon ignition and when the ball enters the forcing cone. For the most part, all men experienced with the Colt concure that the open top has an apparent weakness in design, but only when compared to a revolver with a top strap. In and by itself, the open top is more than strong enough given the black powder pressures that it was originally designed around.

I could see where if one was loading hard lead vs soft lead, that the larger .457 ball size might cause issue of excessive undue stress.

But one thing to consider is that if the arbor was getting loose over time, them one might have noticed and felt the slop and play when dissassemling and cleaning.

It sure could be hard to figure this one out caferacer without being the person that had direct use and control over the revolver. But I do not feel that it is a common problem.

the thing is, this has put me totally off getting another open top Colt, or even shooting my 51 Uberti navy too much,
I guess what I am trying to understand is if this is a case of, "it can happen but usually doesn't, so don't worry about it"
or " if you shoot one enough it will eventually get loose, so take it easy on them or get a Remington"

another question, is any amount of arbor play acceptable, or should the revolver be retired or repaired at the first sign of movement no matter how minute ?

[brazosdave]

I always shoot .454's, and soft lead, so perhaps thats why i never had any type of problem like that.  I will say that it is possible for remmys to shoot a little bit loose, and definitely possible to have the grip frame break  ( I happen to have a wall hanger that has both conditions.  It is a steel frame model.  I did not know it was like that when i bought it, hence it becoming a wall hanger, lol).

As to your question, in my limited knowledge, no, there should be no slop in the arbor whatsoever.  I will count on the fact that a more experienced gun guy/machinest/etc. will chime in with a yea or a nay.

[Captainkirk]

I have NEVER heard of an open-top STEEL FRAME shooting loose....brassers, yes. But to experience what he did, failure must have been eminent for some time and gone unheeded.
Don't be afraid of the open-tops, Cafe. Treat 'em right and they'll do the same in return.

[44 Dave]

If your are afraid of your '51 I am sure there is some one who wouldn't mind taking it off of your hands.
I am looking for some 1860 parts, what plans does your friend have for what is left of it?

[caferacer]

If your are afraid of your '51 I am sure there is some one who wouldn't mind taking it off of your hands.
I am looking for some 1860 parts, what plans does your friend have for what is left of it?

I will post up some pics of my 1851 navy when I get a chance, not too worried about a 36cal getting loose, plus I dont shoot it all that much (just enough  ) I am beginning to think that the 1860 was just a lemon, a victim of poor quality control,
I picked up a bare steel frame for $50 at a flea market a couple Saturdays ago and we used it to rebuild the franken revolver, (I tried to buy the parts off of him first, but he refused to sell) so for now it is back in shooting shape, 

p.s. the guy at the flea market had a few other parts, an ASM marked barrel for a 44 cal 1860, and an unmarked 1860 cylinder that did not fit the Pietta, the ring of teeth on the back of the cylinder that engage the hand, were larger than the recess in the frame and would not fit, (he said he did not believe any of the parts were off of the same revolver)

[mazo kid]

 Well, the fact that you got the gun used is a major red flag in the cause of failure. You have NO prior knowledge of what loads were used in the gun previously, (maybe even smokeless?)  Also, the use of over-large balls is a major stressor on the loading lever/frame.

[Fingers McGee]

I have NEVER heard of an open-top STEEL FRAME shooting loose....brassers, yes. But to experience what he did, failure must have been eminent for some time and gone unheeded.
Don't be afraid of the open-tops, Cafe. Treat 'em right and they'll do the same in return.

It happens.  I've had the arbors on a couple steel frame Colt replicas get loose after a few thousand rounds.  Not enough to let go though.  They have been tightened up by adding a shim between arbor & frame and are still in use; albeit not as much as before.

I've got others with a few thousand rounds through them that show no signs of loosening.

[omarkw]

as far as shooting  a loose arbor, DONT DO IT!!!!!! fix it, part it out or hang it up. it wont heal itself and just gets more dangerous (or dangerouser, as the case may be).    mark