38 Colt conversion cylinder for 1851

[mike116]

My new $170 Pietta 1851 sure got expensive fast!!

Regards,
Richard

Maybe so but just think how frustration and money you saved others.  I have a '51 Navy I have been thinking about converting.  Either that or buying a '51 Richards/Mason conversion.   Now I have the information to make an informed decision.   Thanks.

Hi Mike, all the .36 Colt revolvers produced until the very late 1800s used a bore that requires an ~0.375" bullet. If you want to keep such a revolver historic then use 38 0.357 hbwc bullet with the conversion cylinder. IMO if a lined 0.357" barrel seems interesting, just buy a 38 Special or 357 revolver. The Speer 148gr hollow based wadcutters seem to work well with the 38 Special case in the historic 0.375" bore revolver.  If you don't handload, I believe that the Sellier & Bellot 148gr 38 Special use a hollow base bullet. I found a box of those Sellier & Bellot in my ammo dump and will give them a try the next time weather permits and report back.

Some day if I'm really bored to death and not having any other firearm project, I may try loading up some heeled bullets.

Edit: I pulled the bullet from a Sellier & Bellot 148gr wadcutter 38 Special and it does indeed have a hollow base. The hollow base extends 1/2 the bullet length. The Speer 148gr hbwc hollow base extends ~3/4 of the bullet length. It will be interesting to see if that hollow base length difference makes much of a difference for accuracy.

Regards,
Richard

Thanks Richard,   the Speer  HBWC 148 grain bullets are exactly what I was looking at for a Richards/Mason conversion 1851 Navy.  I had found one for sale here locally but don't know if it's still available.   It is new unfired and in great shape.   I have started hand loading recently and the local reloading shop has what I need in stock.  Also, Trail Boss has become available here and I've wanting to try some. 
Better go see if the gun is still for sale.
I already have a S&W .38 Special and my daughter shoots a .38 special/.357 so I will be loading .38 special anyway.

[StrawHat]

Crimping dies for the 38 Colt are available here.

http://cartridgeconversion.com/RELOADING.php

Hi StrawHat, IMO that's the Lee 35 Remington Factory Crimp Die with a special made adapter to hold the 38 Colt brass at the correct height for crimping. The modification of the conversion cylinder to take 41 Colt that would allow the use of ~0.380" bullets seems interesting, but have you seen the price for 41 Colt brass?

Regards,
Richard

No idea how Gary is making the dies, just that he says he has them.

41 Colt brass is not the cheapest stuff, but how much do you really need and how often do you need to replenish it?  I am still using 38 Special brass I got in the 70s, the stuff is hard to wear out.  Same with most of my brass.  I can use it for decades.  I do not push my loads in any chambering. 

By the way, there is a way to make 41 LC from 38 Special brass.  I have never done it nor would I recommend it but it can be done.

[ssb73q]

Hi, I'm still interested in making semi-fixed ammunition that can be used with the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder and .36 1851 Navy. The idea is to drop 0.375-0.380" balls into the conversion cylinder and then load a 38 Colt shell charged with powder and wad.

The chamber end of the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder is 0.374" in diameter. I already learned that a 38 Special case is too long to fit in the cylinder chamber with a ball. The shorter case of the 38 Colt will fit well with a ball. I ordered 0.36 x 0.5" wads from Track of the Wolf to place over TrailBoss powder. A thin 0.375 lubed wad could also be placed on the end of the shell before crimping if lubing is useful to accuracy.

You may wonder, what's the point of using semi-fixed ammo in the conversion cylinder? It would allow shooting .38 balls using smokeless powder in my 1851 Navy.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, a little update on ammo for the 1851 .36 with conversion cylinder. After reloading 350 rds of Speer 148gr 358" HBWC bullets, I returned to Midway and found out that the Speer bullet was out of stock. I left an email when back in stock request. Wanting to make sure I had some more hollow based wadcutter bullets available, I ordered 500 Magnus HBWC, see:
http://magnusbullets.com/store/page11.html

When the Magnus bullets arrived, I loaded up 200, but have yet to test them.

Since then I went back to Midway to find that they have the Speer HBWC now listed as discontinued. I don't know if it's just Midway or Speer that has discontinued them.

A little searching found some Speer wadcutters in stock at Impact guns, see:
http://www.impactguns.com/speer-handgun-bullets-lead-38-caliber-358-148-gr-hollow-base-wadcutter-500box-076683046185.aspx

I ordered 500 more Speer.

Important to the functioning of the .358 HBWC bullet in the 0.36" 1851 bore is the depth of the hollow base, the deeper the better. I measured the depth of different .357 HBWC bullets:

Speer = 0.34"
Magnus = 0.315"
Sellier and Bellot = 0.309"

Overall HBWC bullet length = ~0.64"

Regards,
Richard

[StrawHat]

Hi, I'm still interested in making semi-fixed ammunition that can be used with the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder and .36 1851 Navy. The idea is to drop 0.375-0.380" balls into the conversion cylinder and then load a 38 Colt shell charged with powder and wad.

The chamber end of the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder is 0.374" in diameter. I already learned that a 38 Special case is too long to fit in the cylinder chamber with a ball. The shorter case of the 38 Colt will fit well with a ball. I ordered 0.36 x 0.5" wads from Track of the Wolf to place over TrailBoss powder. A thin 0.375 lubed wad could also be placed on the end of the shell before crimping if lubing is useful to accuracy.

You may wonder, what's the point of using semi-fixed ammo in the conversion cylinder? It would allow shooting .38 balls using smokeless powder in my 1851 Navy.

Regards,
Richard

If interested, Accurate Molds has at least two molds for making heel based bullets for the 36 caliber C&B revolver, they are 38-095B and 38-100C.  I do not have either but am thinking about getting one for a similar project.

Kevin

[ssb73q]

Hi StrawHat, thanks for the information on heeled bullet molds. A while back I ordered some heeled bullets from Gad, but haven't yet received them. I have all the dies necessary to crimp heeled bullets. Steve offered a low cost heeled bullet die modification that is interesting, see:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=5179.0

I'm still looking for someone that tried Steve's mold modification.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, it took well over a month and a couple of emails before Gad sent me the .38 Long Colt heeled bullets I ordered. The bullets are crap with lots of lead folds and the dimensions are all over the place. Even if the heel can be driven into an excessively expanded 38 Colt case, the COAL of the completed round is too long for the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder. One would need 38 Colt (short) brass to have them fit. IMO stay away from Gad for your reloading supplies.

It looks like I'm just going to stay with 38 Special brass loaded with hollow based wadcutters when using the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, I just received a new 1851 38 Colt conversion cylinder from Taylor Firearms. Taylor's has the best price. This now gives me two conversion cylinders that can shoot the 38 Special with 0.358" hollow based wadcutters. The conversion cylinder was installed in my 1851 and it appears to be timed perfectly, just like the other one. What's nice is that the barrel wedge of my Pietta 1851s allows easy wedge removal with just finger pressure. Recharging cylinders in that 1851 is very easy and fast.

I can't wait for my snow on the ground to melt so I can get shooting again!

Regards,
Richard

[mazo kid]

I just realized that I never answered Richard's question as to what bullet I shoot in my 38 conversion cylinder. I shoot the Lyman HB-WC over black powder. "Ofitg" sent me a dummy bullet made from the Lee 375-130 conical mould. He had made a simple tool, similar to a heel base crimper for reducing the diameter of the base of the bullet. It is a snug (but not tight) fit in the cylinder and does go in with no problem. If I can come up with a mould I will definitely try that!

[ssb73q]

Hi, a little update on ammo for the 1851 .36 with conversion cylinder. After reloading 350 rds of Speer 148gr 358" HBWC bullets, I returned to Midway and found out that the Speer bullet was out of stock. I left an email when back in stock request. Wanting to make sure I had some more hollow based wadcutter bullets available, I ordered 500 Magnus HBWC, see:
http://magnusbullets.com/store/page11.html

When the Magnus bullets arrived, I loaded up 200, but have yet to test them.

Since then I went back to Midway to find that they have the Speer HBWC now listed as discontinued. I don't know if it's just Midway or Speer that has discontinued them.

A little searching found some Speer wadcutters in stock at Impact guns, see:
http://www.impactguns.com/speer-handgun-bullets-lead-38-caliber-358-148-gr-hollow-base-wadcutter-500box-076683046185.aspx

I ordered 500 more Speer.

Important to the functioning of the .358 HBWC bullet in the 0.36" 1851 bore is the depth of the hollow base, the deeper the better. I measured the depth of different .357 HBWC bullets:

Speer = 0.34"
Magnus = 0.315"
Sellier and Bellot = 0.309"

Overall HBWC bullet length = ~0.64"

Regards,
Richard

Hi, finally got to test the accuracy of the Magnus hollow bassed bullets using a Howell 38 Colt (38 Special) conversion cylinder and 36 caliber Pietta 1851 Navy. This revolver with cap and ball is extreamly accurate all the way to 50yds. Previous testing of the Speer HBWC produced 3.5" groups at 25yds.

My son-in-law is a new shooter and I took him out to shoot with me. The 1851 Navy with conversion cylinder is a very user friendly firearm to break in new shooters. The 1851 is very accurate, low recoil, and when using conversion cylinders doesn't cap suck. During our shooting I again tested both the Speer and Magnus bullet loads. The Speer produced ~<4" groups at 25yds, The Magnus 2.5". This was a bit of a surprise to me since the hollow base of the Speer is longer than the Magnus bullet. I would have expected the Speer to fill the rifling better than the Magnus. For whatever reason, the Magnus is the more accurate bullet. This is good to know since Speer stopped production of their HBWC .358" bullet. The Magnus is still in production.

BTW, my son-in-law had a blast. He is hooked and will begin working towards his pistol permit.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, after seeing the good results using the Magnus HBWC bullet for target and plinking shooting using a conversion cylinder I see no good reason to reline an 1851 barrel when using a 38 Colt (38 Special) conversion cylinder. I used 2.7gr of Trail Boss powder with the Magnus HBWC bullet in 38 Special brass. There is never cap sucking when using a conversion cylinder with an 1851 Colt.

BTW, Midway currently has a sale on 38 Special brass.

Regards,
Richard

[Prospector]

Hi Richard,
I know that this is an old thread, and maybe you already know this, but it appears that Speer did not discontinue the 38 caliber LHBWC bullet.    MidwayUSA has them in stock again.   I will have to order some of the Magnus Bullets and try them, based upon your results.

Oh, and thanks for giving me the link to this thread.

[ssb73q]

Hi Prospector, I like Magnus better than Speer for the HBWC because it's a little more accurate and cleaner handling when reloading.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, while this thread is an old one, the information here is a good archive for anyone interested in using 38 Colt/38 Special conversion cylinders with BP revolvers. As has been pointed out previously, 0.358 hollow based wadcutters (HBWC) will work in the .36 caliber revolvers with 0.375" bores. The hollow base expands to fill the rifling. While this solution seems perfect, there are some limitations to using HBWC bullets, they are limited to low velocity. Push a HBWC too much and accuracy suffers. High pressure loadings of HBWC 38 Special can cause the thin hollow base of the bullet blow out on bullet exit from the muzzle. A review of reloading manuals shows velocities for the 38 Special HBWC limited to ~700fps.

While not a powerhouse loading, the HBWC load is low recoil and reasonably accurate for casual shooting. If higher performance loadings are required, heel based 38 Colt bullet loads is a path. However, the use of heel based bullets brings other issues for the handloader.

Regards,
Richard

[Tom-ADC]

Wonder how these would work if you can still find them.