Colt Country | Home of The Almighty Colt
Black Powder Pistols => Conversions => Topic started by: ssb73q on December 03, 2020, 08:18:16 AM
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Hi, Mike has a new video shooting the 1860 Colt with Taylors conversion cylinder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBm3hItzgic
If you go this route I suggest that you install a taller front sight to have poi=poa at 25yds. That way you don't miss the center of the target on your first shot.
Regards,
Richard
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I like it! I've got two Armies...might just give one of these a try.
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Are the Taylor's cylinders made by R&D? Why not call them that instead of by the distributor name? Just curious
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Hey Guys,
I'm not sure if R&D still makes them for Taylor's.
They look the same to me.
You have to love Mike's humor when something goes wrong,
I really enjoy watching his videos.
AntiqueSledMan.
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I like it! I've got two Armies...might just give one of these a try.
Hi Kirk, the Pietta 1860 always requires a hand modification, usually shortening, for the timing to be correct. The Uberti 1860 conversion cylinder almost always drops in without an issue.
BTW, stay 1000 miles away from the gated Kirst 1860 conversion cylinder, installation is always troublesome with that conversion cylinder. Properly set up, loading and swapping out an 1860 colt conversion where the barrel needs to be removed is IMO faster than the gated conversion cylinder unloading and reloading.
Regards,
Richard
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Richard, so in this case less is more?!
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I like it! I've got two Armies...might just give one of these a try.
Hi Kirk, the Pietta 1860 always requires a hand modification, usually shortening, for the timing to be correct. The Uberti 1860 conversion cylinder almost always drops in without an issue.
BTW, stay 1000 miles away from the gated Kirst 1860 conversion cylinder, installation is always troublesome with that conversion cylinder. Properly set up, loading and swapping out an 1860 colt conversion where the barrel needs to be removed is IMO faster than the gated conversion cylinder unloading and reloading.
Regards,
Richard
Richard, both my Armies are San Paolos.
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Welllll . . . depends on proper setup!! If you are fast with your ejector ( most are very awkward with it), I can beat you with my Gated conversion against your drop cylinder!!
Gated conversions for open tops are historically correct ( drop cylinders are not). The best setup is an either or proposition . . . either a cap gun or conversion. A "dedicated" cartridge setup with the Kirst is a very nice, very functional working revolver. I happen to have a beautiful Uberti made Cimarron import 1860 Army (civilian) with silver plated trigger guard that will be getting a Pietta Kirst gated conversion and will be my "fancy" " next to me" "personal", "around the house" protection device!! Yes, Pietta because it's a little longer so it can be loaded with factory length fodder.
Mike
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Hi scooby, yes the Kirst drops in easily, but it's difficult to get it to work reliably. The problem with the Kirst 1860 gated conversion cylinder is the the floating backplate. The cylinder/barrel gap needs to larger than desired for reliability. It's easy for a case rim to get caught up on the backplate and jam the revolver. Howell did it right with their gated 1851 conversion cylinder where the cylinder backplate is screwed onto the revolver backplate. IMO installation of the Kirst 1860 gated conversion isn't an amateur's project. That's best left to guys like Mike (Goon).
What a crock,
Richard
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Scoob, that is total Bunk!!!
"Floating" or not ( the cartridges themselves are floating for Pete's sake!!!) the back plate is just a "back stop" for the case to back up against!! My own revolvers with Kirst conversions have a .0015 " barrel/ cylinder clearance!! Everything happens in front of the "back plate" or conversion ring. Whether it is fixed or not has absolutely no relevance as to what happens in front of it. If anyone knows better, please tell me how or what . . . if you feel the need to screw the Kirst ring to the recoil shield, by all means do so . . . but there's no need to!! (It's a crutch for not liking it!)
I've done many ( mounted and not mounted) for customers that are completely satisfied with the results (which are always setup just as a close tolerance revolver should be!). Don't let folks bs you !!! If I wouldn't defend my life or my family with it, I would say so!!!!!
Mike
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In fact, the 2 piece cyls are a weaker design because of the lack of support for the cartridge case. The "floating" Kirst ring gives full support whereas the back plate on the "Howell" type conversion does not.
Actually, I'll be shooting some "good" loads soon but only for demonstrating the strength of the Colt pattern design, not the Kirst product . . per se . . . haaaa haaaa !!!!
Mike
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My Kirst gated conversion has had well over 1000 rounds through it so far. Most in 80 to 1200 round sessions in an afternoon. It has not locked up or otherwise hiccoughed yet. I have never even had to swab it out between cylinder fulls, and I use real black powder.
My opinion is, they are a testament to Walt's expertise.
Your mileage may vary.
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Hi, wow, a lot of edited posts in this thread. Glad the hate mail parts were removed. lol
I just didn't fall off the turnip truck and have done a couple of Kirst gated .45 Colt conversion cylinder conversions. It took me a lot of work to get them to work properly with a 0.005+" cylinder/barrel gap. IMO the Taylor type conversion cylinder is so much simpler to get working properly with a 0.002" gap by the amateur.
Something else to consider is that doing a gated conversion turns the revolver into an FFL to transfer firearm. The Taylor cylinder conversion does not since the revolver itself isn't modified. If you want historical, go Kirst. However, if you would just like to be able to shoot .45 Colt from your 1960 Army, go with the Taylor. The Taylor cylinder is also lower cost than the Kirst.
Okay, let the hate mail continue.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, some photos of my amateur created gated conversions. Notice that they all have taller front sights so that poi=poa @25yds. As Mike in his video pointed out, .45 Colt in an 1860 Army shoots much higher than C&B. When you have a few different revolvers to shoot it is nice to be able to hit the X-ring with the first shot without needing to recall kentucky windage.
Regards,
Richard
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Hey Richard, I read in haste yesterday and didn't see your reference to me. So . . . thank you and I apologize for slamming the door so hard !!! No "hate mail" from here!!
Mike
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Hi Mike, no problem with hurt feeling here, mom always said to not take anything personal.
This is the problem I have setting up the Kirst gated conversion cylinder:
Without cartridges in the cylinder the narrow cylinder parts that protrude from the back face of the cylinder that bears against the Kirst backplate is 0.050" long. However, SAAMI has the .45 Colt rim thickness spec at 0.060-0.011". See (pg(59):
https://saami.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
While some .45 Colt cartridges are equal, some are more equal than others. lol
I suspect that Kirst expects the rim of the .45 Colt cartridge to set the barrel/cylinder gap since the protrude part is shorter than most .45 Colt cartridges. However, that means that different manufactures of .45 Colt cartridges and brass may have different rim thicknesses. IMO getting a 0.002" gap consistently with different manufacture cartridges would be difficult at best. That's why I build to a 0.005+" barrel/cylinder gap.
What's your take on the above comments?
Regards,
Richard
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Nobody asked me, but my take would be to use new Starline brass, set the gun up for it, and get yourself a nice stockpile (say, 500 cases) and not worry about it.
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Hi Kirk, that's one path, but IMO a .45 Colt revolver should be able to shoot any .45 Colt ammo loaded. Loaded with BP, a larger cylinder/barrel gap makes some sense for BP fouling. S&W has that a cylinder/barrel gap as large as 0.011 is acceptable for their modern revolvers.
Regards,
Richard
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You're right Kirk ! NOBODY ASKED YOU !!!! LOL!!!!!! JUST TEASING !!!! (Could not resist!!!)
Anyway, the way I set them up is a little tedious but the final setup is rather satisfying! The ratchet rests against the recoil shield ( that means the end of the teeth are trued and polished . . . polished by means of 1200 sandpaper on a glass surface). The front of the cyl is trued ( de- burred and no ridge at any chamber mouth) and also polished in the same manner as the ratchet ( yes, the face of the cyl is shiny). The barrel/cyl clearance ( endshake) is set ( mine are .0015" - .002").
Now, you have a cylinder with an almost nonexistent endshake so we need to fit the conversion ring. With dummy rounds loaded, you need at least .003" - .005" headspace for the cartridges ( mine typically is .003" - .004"). Use the newest and or thickest brass you have and have at least the min. headspace. If you need to gain more space ( because of the cylinder fitting process ) take material away from the front face of the conversion ring ( 320 sandpaper on glass). When you reach your clearance, you can polish that surface as well.
Now you have a Kirst cyl with .0015" - .002" endshake with headspace tollerance and a conversion ring ( mounted or not) that will fully support the case head that moves back against it as it reseats the spent primer. It's as tight as the proverbial drum and works as if it came from the Freedom Arms custom shop!!
That's how I do it.
Mike
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You're right Kirk ! NOBODY ASKED YOU !!!! LOL!!!!!!
LOL...that's why I said it, Mike! Sometimes I just can't help myself and shut up! (7+" (7+"
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And then, on my personal revolvers, I cut the hammer face back, drill a mounting hole, a hole for a cross pin and mount a "firing plate". The plate is then fitted so that the firing pin is the only thing the mounted plate contacts . . . never touches the conversion ring.. Once fitted, the plate is hardened, polished, fire blued and reinstalled. Now, when the hammer drops, the frame is what stops the hammers movement while the firing pin is fully in the forward position. No excessive wear to the hammer ( hammer draw is just 3 lbs ), or the firing plate or the firing pin. They will never beat themselves up!!
Mike
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Hi, if you want a BP revolver to shoot .45 Colt were the converted revolver is close to historical, the 1858 Remington is outstanding. The Taylor cylinder for that revolver is a 6-shot cylinder. Loading and reloading is easy peasy. Own two Taylor .45 Colt 1858 Remington cylinders for Clint Eastwood like reloading.
This recommendation should get some hate mail, or at least having me banned from this message board? lol
Regards,
Richard
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Lol!!!
Me too Richard!! I think the drop cyl conversion is the best for the Remington design!! (6 shots, not 5).
Mike
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Hi Mike, be careful, these Colt guys have a lot of rope. Hope you can run as fast as me. lol
Regards,
Richard
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If owning Remmies was a hanging offense you fellers would have a different Captain. Just sayin'.
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Hey, my first BP revolver was an 1858 Remmie! Second one too! (jh