Colt Country | Home of The Almighty Colt
Black Powder Pistols => Army Models => Topic started by: Ambaryerno on December 27, 2020, 06:08:02 PM
-
So today I took my 1860 Army out to shoot for the first time. I had four packs of paper cartridges from Buffalo Arms (Hornady round ball and 28 grain powder) and a bag of loose Johnston & Dow conicals. My powder flask was loaded with Goex FFFg, and I had two spouts with me: one for 25 and one for 30 grain.
The paper cartridges loaded and fired no problems at all. They popped in quick and easy, and I had no problem seating them with the lever. However the problem came after I shot through the paper carts and moved on to the conicals.
I loaded with 25 grains of powder, and when I tried to seat the ball it stopped with about a quarter of an inch protruding from the top of the cylinder. It would absolutely not go any further.
After ten or so minutes of digging the ball out (thank you, soft lead) I thought, "well maybe it's fouling from the paper cartridges." So I ran a bore brush through the cylinder chambers to clean them out a bit and tried again. No luck. The ball sticks about quarter of an inch out, and I'm pulling down on the lever as far as it will go. At that time I got fed up. A line was queuing at the range, and I didn't have a smaller powder measure with me to try a different load, so I packed up, dug the ball out when I got back to my car, and came home.
So...what's the deal?
Mine is a Second Generation Colt, not one of the reproductions. My understanding was that the 1860 Army could take up to 30 grains of powder with the Johnston & Dow ball (I believe it was made using the Era's Gone mold). Mesa Winds' cartridge former for the Army is designed for 30 grain with the Johnston & Dow. Cap And Ball's former has a smaller charge, but is still 24 grains of powder (can't believe that 1 grain of powder would make THAT much difference). And there's plenty of videos and blog posts out there of people shooting J&D cartridges loaded with 30 grains of powder.
This is my first time trying to load conicals in a cap and ball revolver (I also have an Armi San Marco 1851 Navy). I didnt lubricate the ball before loading (I intended to lube the front of the cylinder) so I dont k is if that would make a difference.
-
Welcome to Colt Country Ambaryeno!
I don't have any 2nd Gen Colts. But my Pietta 1860 Army's will take 30 grains of FFFg and a J&D conical with no problem. I even load them in paper cartridges.
Did you acquire the gun new? Or did you get it second hand?
The reason I ask is, maybe someone prior to you owning it, modified something. Maybe the rammer has been shortened for some unknown reason.
Would it be possible to load the cylinder off the gun? That would tell you right away if 30gr and a conical will fit or not.
-
The gun was bought second-hand. While it was used, the seller gave no indication about it having been modified in any way. One of my thoughts was whether the rammer was shortened, but like I said, it had no problem with the round balls.
I just measured it and the rammer is about 2" long overall.
I don't currently have a loader to try the cylinder off the gun.
-
That doesn't make sense. Even tho the 2nd gens were finished and fit by Colt they're still made from repro parts supplied by Uberti and 30 grains with a J&D bullet should work just fine. If the pre made ones worked the rest should have worked also. Maybe you weren't putting enough effort into seating them?
-
I know it doesn't make sense, that's why I'm posting. ;-) I put as much force into the lever as I physically could.
I can try loading it when I get home now that I had a chance to do a complete cleaning to make sure it wasn't just because the cylinder was really fouled, (like I said, I'd previously put four packs of round ball cartridges from Buffalo Arms through it before I tried switching to the loose conicals) but I'd rather not have to deal with a stuck bullet if it fails again.
And to repeat a question from before: I did NOT pre-lubricate the bullet before trying to load; I'd intended to apply lube to the face of the cylinder after loading instead. Could applying lube to the ball make a different when trying to seat it?
-
Hmmm., if you are able to load a round ball load that tells me the rammer is not too short. Now, what about those J-D bullets? What are they cast from? You said soft lead, but is it really? Are you saying that the J-D bullets are too long? That they are bottoming out in the cylinder? Or are they too big in diameter? Inquiring minds want to know.
-
According to the manufacturer's site they're pure lead and the max diameter is .460. I don't know if they bottomed or for some combination of fouling and/or diameter they wouldn't seat any deeper, just that after pulling the loading lever as far as I physically could they were still protruding from the front of the cylinder.
-
I just measured mine, and they are indeed .460 diameter. Very strange that they'd fit in a Pietta but not a Colt.
I'll be interested to hear if they fit after your thorough cleaning of the cylinder.
-
I just measured mine, and they are indeed .460 diameter. Very strange that they'd fit in a Pietta but not a Colt.
I'll be interested to hear if they fit after your thorough cleaning of the cylinder.
I'll give it a shot (so to speak). If it doesn't work without lubing the ball first I'll try a second that way. If it loads I guess I can leave the cylinder loaded without a cap and will be ready for the next time I shoot. If I end up stuck is there a better way of getting the ball out of the cylinder than to dig it out in pieces with a screwdriver? I'd thought of getting a ball puller attachment for my cleaning rod, but these things fit so tight I'm not sure if that would even budge it.
-
If the bullet gets stuck then spin a drywall screw into the center of the bullet and pull it out with a pair of pliers.
30 grains of fffg and a JD conical takes a lot of pressure to get it to fit in my Uberti 1860. It won't fit if I add a lube cookie or a wad. 30 grains and a JD conical fits in my Pietta 1860 easier. I think you may want to compare your powder flask spout to some other 30 grain measuring devices to see how it compares.
-
If the bullet gets stuck then spin a drywall screw into the center of the bullet and pull it out with a pair of pliers.
30 grains of fffg and a JD conical takes a lot of pressure to get it to fit in my Uberti 1860. It won't fit if I add a lube cookie or a wad. 30 grains and a JD conical fits in my Pietta 1860 easier. I think you may want to compare your powder flask spout to some other 30 grain measuring devices to see how it compares.
I'd actually tried that yesterday. I ended up snapping the screw in half instead.
And like I said mine got stuck just trying to load with 25 grain (as far as I can tell the measure was correct). As far as lubing the round, I don't mean a cookie or wad, but smearing lube on the outside.
-
I was only saying that a JD and 30 grains won't fit in my Uberti cylinder along with a wad or lube cookie. I'm saying that there is not enough room in the cylinder. I am not refering to lubing your bullet to in order to load it.
-
You might want to remove the cylinder and then the nipple on the offending chamber. Use a brass rod that just fits through the nipple hole and tap out the stuck bullet. Measure the length of the J-D bullet and then the depth of the chamber to see what your max powder charge can be. That will remove any doubt if the bullet is bottoming out.
-
So, I tried it again tonight. 30 grains FFFg (using the spout I bought from Track of the Wolf). I also lubed the ball first. I rammed it as far as I could, until I physically couldn't apply any more pressure to the lever. This is the result:
(https://dewyatt.net/Images/IMG_1189.JPG)
30 grains FFFg almost completely filled the cylinder before I seated the ball.
This is what the inside of one of the chambers looks like:
(https://dewyatt.net/Images/IMG_1191.JPG)
You might want to remove the cylinder and then the nipple on the offending chamber. Use a brass rod that just fits through the nipple hole and tap out the stuck bullet.
Will doing that that work with the powder between the hole and the back of the bullet?
Measure the length of the J-D bullet and then the depth of the chamber to see what your max powder charge can be. That will remove any doubt if the bullet is bottoming out.
The problem is what the max powder charge SHOULD be, and with a J&D it SHOULD be 30 grain. That's already been corroborated here.
-
(as far as I can tell the measure was correct).
As far as you can tell. Did you check it against a powder measure or assuming it was real bp weigh it?
-
If you pull the nipple, you should be able to work most of the powder out.
-
Like has already been said, if the bullet is stuck, just pull the nipple and push the bullet out from the back.
Since the bullet is already stuck, I'd try taking the cylinder off and tapping the bullet in as far as it will go. Just to see if it does actually fit. If not, you'll have to figure out how much powder you can actually use with the J&D in your gun.
Do you have an adjustable powder measure? If so, put a charge in it from your spout, and push the measure up to see how much it's actually throwing. You might be surprised and find out it's throwing more than 30gr.
-
My old adjustable measure goes from 50 to 120 grains. It's one of these:
(https://accessories.tcarms.com/dw/image/v2/BCNX_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-thompsoncenter-master/default/dw5d5a20c8/images/31007040/31007040-High-Quality.jpg)
Two charges from my 25 grain spout doesn't quite fill it all the way at the 50 grain setting (I'm certainly losing a bit of capacity from cupping my finger over the spout. I used to have one that went by 10 grain increments, but I'm only just getting back to shooting again and I have no idea what happened to it. So unless the adjustable measure is really inaccurate, the spouts are about right.
Also, the only thing that trying to tap the ball in any further does is flatten the nose.
Finally, since I'm jammed anyway I tested a a ball without any powder at all as far as it would go, and it loads with about 1/4" between the tip of the bullet and the front end of the chamber.
I noticed that the chamber interiors are rebated (you can see the small "step" in the picture of the interior). Is that standard?
-
I'll look at mine tomorrow and see if the chamber is rebated.
-
I'll look at mine tomorrow and see if the chamber is rebated.
Thanks, let me know what you find.
Out of curiosity, could there be a difference between loading loose powder and loading it packaged together in a cartridge? Like if your chambers ARE rebated, maybe the loose powder isn't compressing in the back of the chamber properly, but loading it via a cartridge will funnel it in better?
-
The opposite would be true. Loose powder would fill the chamber better.
-
@ShotgunDave did you have a chance to check your cylinder chambers?
-
Ambaryerno, thanks for reminding me. I knew there was something I was forgetting to post!
It would appear that there is a very small step in the bottom of the chamber. Don't know how it compares to yours though. It doesn't look like much of a rebate.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50780461496_30ea5abe8c_z.jpg)
-
It's hard to tell. I'd like to see what others would have to say, though mine MAY have a bit more significant step.
-
I'll put them side by side. Maybe we can see a difference.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50780461496_30ea5abe8c_z.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50780362548_77ec3260aa_k.jpg)
They look pretty much the same to me.
-
Extracted the two bullets. The one on the bottom came from the chamber with the powder. Pardon the chewed up tip. I was having issues knocking it out from behind and tried using a screw instead (which just ripped out) before I was finally able to pop it.
It almost looks like powder was creeping up around the heel.
-
It almost looks like powder was creeping up around the heel.
When you have a base smaller than the body that is to be expected.
-
It almost looks like powder was creeping up around the heel.
When you have a base smaller than the body that is to be expected.
My point is could the powder getting up around the heel be preventing it from seating all the way?
-
No, that wont have any effect on it. From the pics it looks like half the bullet is sticking out of the cylinder. A J&D should work fine with a 30 grain charge. I don't see that little bit of chamber step taking up that much powder space. To me it looks like your powder charge is 40 grains or better. Do you have a scale you can weigh a charge on?
-
No, that wont have any effect on it. From the pics it looks like half the bullet is sticking out of the cylinder. A J&D should work fine with a 30 grain charge. I don't see that little bit of chamber step taking up that much powder space. To me it looks like your powder charge is 40 grains or better. Do you have a scale you can weigh a charge on?
No scale. And arent you supposed to be measuring by volume and not weight?
-
No, that wont have any effect on it. From the pics it looks like half the bullet is sticking out of the cylinder. A J&D should work fine with a 30 grain charge. I don't see that little bit of chamber step taking up that much powder space. To me it looks like your powder charge is 40 grains or better. Do you have a scale you can weigh a charge on?
No scale. And arent you supposed to be measuring by volume and not weight?
You can weigh real bp and 30 grains will be right at 30 grains with some differential between grain sizes. Subs wont do that is why they are measured by volume.
-
So I found a small cooking scale. It doesn't measure grains, but it will do 1/10 gram increments. I measured out a charge using my 30 grain spout and weighed it at 1.8g, which comes to about 27 grains. I lost a couple grains because of the pad of my finger sinking into the end of the spout when I blocked it for filling, so the measure appears to be accurate by weight.
-
Then I have no clue. You can try reaming the chambers out or you can reduce the powder charge or stick to round balls.
-
I'm thinking of taking it in to a smith to have them give it a look over, as maybe there's something that someone just needs to have it in their hands to see.
-
So the plot thickens:
I went ahead and picked up an adjustable measure to remove any further doubt over the accuracy of my measure spout. It's a pistol measure with charges from 5 to 45.
So first of all, my 30 grain spout is still showing to be accurate. The amount matches between the spout, the adjustable measure, and by weight. HOWEVER this time when I actually put powder into the chamber it didn't fill it to the top like it did when I tested the other night (I haven't tried loading a ball yet).
Also, while doing testing, that little gate/door/whatever on the inside of the mouth of the powder flask FELL OFF and dropped down into the flask (yay, now I need to see if I can actually open the flask all the way to get it back).
So now I'm wondering if maybe that door wasn't seated right, so when I went to fill the chamber it MEASURED accurately from the spout, but didn't seal so when I actually went to load the powder more came out when I upended the flask.
-
It sounds like you may have found the problem!
-
I know it was sounding like an episode of The Twilight Zone for a while.
-
Methinks you have found the problem!
-
That was my initial thought. Is it throwing 30 grains?
-
That was my initial thought. Is it throwing 30 grains?
Well, like I said it was MEASURING 30 grains with the spout. The problem was that it may have been leaking when I actually filled the chamber, so ended up with more than was measured.
-
I ALWAYS measure powder with a KNOWN powder measure separate from the spout on my flask. I do this for a couple reasons.
Frist is the danger of holding a hand grenade meaning that IF thete be a spark left in the chamber, my charge directly from the flask COULD ignite and walla ... blown up hand.
Second being known that my charge is EXACTLY what I desire and not contingent on the spout being sealed off FOR SURE from the flask powder. Using a separate measure separate from the flask makes it impossible for the measure to hold anything but my desired charge.
Your problem makes me wonder about two things. Maybe using powder that is not pure Black Powder ... or ... not throwing your proper desired charge while using the spout.
I suggest trying your 5 to 45 or such adjustable measure to meter your charge into the chamber. Will this allow your bullet to seat?
-
The Eras gone bullet is .460 from the mid point forward, the charge holes in the cylinder are more than likely .450 , this will be a tight fit and may be the reason you can't push it home, the round ball shaves a little off on the way in and has a short bearing surface along with a short overall length and is the reason it fits. What round ball size are you shooting ?
-
Ambaryerno, are you sure which J&D bullet you have there? It is hard to tell from your pictures, but Eras Gone is selling a J&D Dragoon bullet that is longer than their standard 44 bullet. They look similar, but the Dragoon bullet is listed at a length of .800. If you have any remaining bullets and can measure them, and they are .800, that bullet would be too long for your powder charge ( or any reasonable one)you are trying to use in an 1860 Army. If you watch the Eras Gone video where this Dragoon bullet is being loaded into a Uberti 2nd model Dragoon, they were just able to squeeze 30 grs of powder under that bullet, even in that huge Dragoon cylinder.
-
I used this one here:
https://www.thejeffersonarsenal.com/product-page/44-johnston-dow-pistol-conicals-60rds
According to the site its made using the Eras Gone mold. Once I got that adjustable measure to test load without using the flask spout I was able to load it with 30 grain. Still working on paper cartridges, tho.
-
Sounds like you figured out the issue.
I like to fill a chamber of my Pietta's with powder then dump that, carefully, into my powder measure to see how much powder will fill the chambers. IIRC my 44 1860 Piettas will take 40gr of FFFg and my 36 cal 1851 Navy Piettas will take 30gr of powder.
It is possible to ram (with effort) a soft round ball on top of those chamber full charges. The ball will deform.
-
I'd just ram them in as far as they will go and them taking a hacksaw, cut them off flush.................. (7+" &\?
-
I used this one here:
https://www.thejeffersonarsenal.com/product-page/44-johnston-dow-pistol-conicals-60rds
According to the site its made using the Eras Gone mold. Once I got that adjustable measure to test load without using the flask spout I was able to load it with 30 grain. Still working on paper cartridges, tho.
I will urge you to please not use the (or ANY spout on a FLASK) spout that is attached to any kinda flask of any kind. You are holding a HANDGERNADE.
As an experiment try this if you have not done so already;
- pour your 3F real black powder into a tablespoon.
-now set the spoon down in a safe spot.
-take a LONG fireplace match and lite the spoonful.
-observe how fast it burns
Now imagine your hand wrapped around even a small flask full of black powder igniting from even the smallest ember left in any of those fired chambers.
To be fair, I and others have been doing this for decades and to my knowledge never has this happened. BUT ... do you want to gamble with YOUR hands ... you know ... the things you eat with, blow your nose with, dress yourself with and maybe the most important ... wipe your bumm with?
Best to use a separate held measure that holds maybe 30 GRAINS ... which will still char a finger a bit ... but not enough to disable you.
Food for thought at least.
-
Thanks for that reminder, Ted! We all need our fingers...Safety can't be overstessed.
-
So I think I'm going to need to take the Colt in to a smith. Even with a cartridge former specifically designed for 30 grain (shorter but wider cartridge than the Cap and Ball one), and taking the cylinder off to start it to make sure the cartridge is going in straight, it still won't seat quite enough to load paper cartridges with that charge. So maybe the chambers just aren't quite or deep enough or are just a little too small diameter (didn't the original Colts have a slightly larger chamber?). Also, the loading window probably needs to be enlarged (I could swear I read the 2nd Gens had the correct size window, but I guess not).
-
I know that even with round ball loads, 30 grains is about the limit in my 44's. Remington New Army might hold a bit more but all my Colts have this 30 grain RB load at max.
Conicals hold much less (I should clarify this holds true of the pointed Colt bullets) powder ... if memorie holds ... around 24 to 26 grains ... make ramming the point to be even with the cylinder face.
-
I'm using Johnston & Dows which SHOULD load 30 grain in the Colt 1860 Army.
So I do have an update since we finally had a good day for shooting. I fired four loads altogether. The first was preloaded with my paper cartridges and the other three were with loose powder. The results:
1) Good news: The paper I was using for my cartridges (some were flash paper, some were the nitrated paper I got from Buffalo Arms) ignites just fine, so no danger of misfires there.
2) Bad news: Even with loose powder only some of the chambers can load 30 grain with the J&Ds and still allow the bullet to seat all the way and allow the cylinder to turn. I know for certain one did, but I gave up and switched to 25 before checking all six. I just didn't feel like removing the cylinder to flatten the tips enough to fit. :-P
3) Annoyance: I kept having caps on the unfired chambers pop off when I shot. I'm using #10 Remingtons.
Also, twice I had a chamber fire successfully, but the cap didn't allow the hammer to fall completely. This locked the cylinder because the gun still thought it was cocked. Both times I was able to clear with a little bit of work.
I didn't hit the first target at all. I kind of scattered across the remaining three, but considering I'm both dealing with powder loads and haven't shot regularly in forever, I'm happy just to hit SOMEthing. :-P
I've got the day off on Monday, so I'm going to take it in to see if anything can be done with the chambers (I may make up six more cartridges so they have something to test/work with). I think the loading window is also too small (it was really a struggle trying to load the cartridges. I'd thought the Colt 2nd Gens had a larger window, but I guess not) so I'll have that enlarged as well.
-
Man that sucks that you're having such an inordinate amount of trouble with that gun. Sounds like it was a Friday 5:00 deal.
-
Also, twice I had a chamber fire successfully, but the cap didn't allow the hammer to fall completely. This locked the cylinder because the gun still thought it was cocked. Both times I was able to clear with a little bit of work.
You're not fully seating the caps. Use a wood dowel to push them on. Caps are not pressure sensitive. Some people even push them on with the hammer.
-
Those JD bullets take up too much room for me to get anywhere near 30 grains under them. Your 25 grain load is what I use and even that is a full chamber by the time I get the nose even with the cylinder mouth.
Just curious if ANYBODY gets to load 30 grains under those Johnson n Dow bullets in an 1860 Colt of any kind. Maybe in a Remington new model Army ...
-
At .460 they aint gonna fit in a .452 hole , I have to size mine down to get them to load
-
I easily get 30grn of FFFg under the J&D bullets in my Pietta 1860 Army revolvers.
-
The smith quoted to have the work on mine finished tomorrow. They were going to make adjustments to match the chambers and loading window to the measurements of the original pieces, so I should know more soon
-
So, bumping this with an update...
The smith I took it to earlier this year...did nothing. He said all the measurements on the chambers were correct to the originals, and refused to do anything about the loading window because he wasn't comfortable with it. I'm not pleased about that.
So I tried shooting with 25 grain cartridges, not long after, and THOSE wouldn't seat all the way, either! However those were being just as big of a pain to fit into the loading window as the 30 grain, so I figured that was likely the problem because I couldn't get them to start straight.
After some searching once I had time I took my gun in to a different smith last month to have both issues looked at. Although they were able to enlarge the loading window so now the 25 grain cartridges fit properly under the lever, they weren't able to do anything about the chamber itself because of the grooves for the ratchet/lock mechanism, (drilling out the back of the chambers would make the metal too thin) so they couldn't make it take the 30 grain cartridges.
Whatever, I still had plenty of 25 grain made up, so today I went back to the range...
...and even though I can now start them level, the damn gun STILL won't seat the 25 grain cartridges all the way.
I honestly don't know what to do anymore. My powder charge is already lighter than what the original cartridges were, and the damn things still won't fit.
I'm using the nitrated paper from Buffalo Arms. Could it be that the paper is too thick? I had flash paper, which is much thinner, however it doesn't keep safely, and I just had to dispose of a whole package that was going bad. Is there anyone else who makes nitrated paper with thinner sheets?
Or do I have to reduce my powder load even FURTHER, even though it's already well below historical loads? Could there be a difference between modern black powder and what was available then that could account for this (I'm using Goex 3F)? Like maybe the older powder compressed more readily?
I also noticed the paper isn't burning up completely like it's supposed to, but leaving rings in the chambers, which obviously doesn't help loading subsequent rounds (the ones I tested at home this morning to test the fit of the window ALMOST seated completely). I'm currently using silicone silicate to hold everything together as on the historical cartridges, but should I be using something else?
I'm just about at the end of my rope with trying to get this to work.
-
A bit of paper residue is normal. It won't imped reloading.
You can open up the loading port with a file or use a Dremel. Just break that sharp corner. A little cold blue and you're in business.
-
Try beauty salon curling papers. They don't need to be nitrated.
-
This may sound dumb, but how are you firing the gun if the charges aren't fully seated?
Have you tried to pour a 30 grain charge directly into the chamber and seat a bullet, instead of using a paper cartridge?
-
This may sound dumb, but how are you firing the gun if the charges aren't fully seated?
Have you tried to pour a 30 grain charge directly into the chamber and seat a bullet, instead of using a paper cartridge?
^^^^This^^^^
-
Well, it's been a long while since I've posted, but I think I finally resolved my issue.
It seems I don't have any hope of ever getting 30 grain to load. I did make an adjustment to the 25 grain cartridge: I was using the nitrated paper from Buffalo Arms, which looked like it was plain ol' 8.5 x 11" printer paper. So I decided to make my own paper by nitrating some coffee filters.
EUREKA. I had 24 cartridges made up, and no problems loading at all. So it seems the paper I was using was simply WAY too thick for the purpose.
So beware of the nitrated paper from Buffalo Arms. That stuff is probably WAY too thick.
Now I just need to make up a whole bunch of cartridges for another range day.
-
So I have attempted taking a picture of the 30 grain Old E 3F powder under the J&D conical where I need to shave off lead from the tip as I could not load it any deeper on top of the crushed powder load.
Took another picture of an intact J&D 44 cal conical with its tip intact.
This is a Uberti model 1860 and I can not get this 30 grain charge to seat deep enough to not have to shave the tip so as to spin past the barrel during the cocking process.
Glad others can shoot 30 grains under this bullet, I can not.
Can shoot 25 grains all day long but not the 30 grain load.
-
Guess 1 outta 2 aint bad.
-
I was using the nitrated paper from Buffalo Arms, which looked like it was plain ol' 8.5 x 11" printer paper. So I decided to make my own paper by nitrating some coffee filters.
Nitrated paper is overrated. Nitrating isn't necessary.
-
That's a good result Ambaryerno. Glad to see you back.
-
Well took 2 try's but I think the grit of my point is made.
I have had 3 1860's and none have allowed me a 30 grain load under them.
Not trying to be combative here. Just letting the OPer know that his revolver is not the only one that will not take a 30 grain load under the JD bullet.
Cheers fellas :usa-flag-89:
-
Could it be that there is enough volume difference between Uberti and Pietta cylinders?
Thought I had an older Pietta 1860 layin around which I could make a comparison with but no can find.
-
Could it be that there is enough volume difference between Uberti and Pietta cylinders?
Thought I had an older Pietta 1860 layin around which I could make a comparison with but no can find.
Could be, Pietta cylinders are longer
-
I did finally find my Pietta 1860 ( was setting in with my rifles ... attached to my shoulder stock ) and attempted loading the 30 grain load under the era's gone JD pointed conical . It loaded down under the cylinder mouth but only because of Pietta's blunt cavity on their loading ram ... thereby blunting the point on the bullet enough for the cylinder to rotate past the barrel.
Nother thing that occurred to me is that I have no problems in my revolvers with the 30 grain load under my home cast round ball's. These shoot wonderfully and lets you know your shooting a big bore revolver design from yesteryear.
Any rate I am glad for the OP in finding a cure. May the smoke billow my friend.