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Welcomes and General Information => Guns of Infamy => Topic started by: Miguel Loco on July 02, 2022, 12:57:16 PM
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Geronimo "surrendered" a few times before his final capture and relocation to Florida. His rifle of choice was a 73 Springfield (79 modification). He preferred it over the Winchesters. The first pic is a rifle he surrendered to John Clum in 1877.
He was deadly with that rifle, see this short article https://frontierpartisans.com/1794/firearms-of-the-frontier-partisans-geronimos-rifle/
Finally, one of my favorite historic pictures is Geronimo surrendering to George Crook in 1886. It's interesting to look closely at the clothing worn. Note Crook is wearing moccasins and a pith helmet.
The Apache Wars was the longest war the US has ever fought. Even though Geronimo's "band" was quite small and included women and children, they held off the USA from 1849 to 1886, with small skirmishes continuing until 1924.
Hope the pics work.....
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This is some very interesting history. He was quite a figure back then. I like the original photos.
One of my favorite ones of him is a staged photo with him holding a Dance & Bros pistol. I don't think he carried one regularly, though.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/70/a9/69/70a969fcfbad96744bf3c9ceb06c952d.jpg)
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I doubt it. Later in life.....Geronimo made money selling signed pictures of himself. I would imagine that is one of them.
From what I understand, a handgun would not have had as much value as a long gun. I would have just slowed them down.
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Exactly. No one would want all that extra weight without good reason.
It's interesting that he chose one of the best rifles for long range work. He obviously knew his strength was with that. A single shot under those circumstances would not be a drawback. Especially if he had other warriors around him with repeaters to keep confrontations distant. That one photo definitely shows him the only one with the long rifle. Is that a support stick he was holding in the photo with the rifle?
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Exactly. No one would want all that extra weight without good reason.
It's interesting that he chose one of the best rifles for long range work. He obviously knew his strength was with that. A single shot under those circumstances would not be a drawback. Especially if he had other warriors around him with repeaters to keep confrontations distant. That one photo definitely shows him the only one with the long rifle. Is that a support stick he was holding in the photo with the rifle?
A lot of Indians carried pistols. Maybe not every day but on raids and battles they did. It's actually two sticks. He probably used them for cross sticks.
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Great thread Mick and a most interesting article too from Frontier Partisans. Thank you!
The wife and I visited Fort Pickens near Pensacola, Florida back in the late 80's. It was very interesting and yet sad that he had become merely a tourist attraction.. I snipped this from Santa Rosa Island Authority website.
"By February 1887, tourists from all across the country were arriving in Pensacola by train to visit the fort and see the prisoners. Admission was 50 cents for adults and 25 cents for children. On one recorded Sunday, 459 tourists visited the fort. Geronimo had become a sideshow spectacle.
Geronimo and his warriors spent nearly two years at Fort Pickens working manual labor. In May 1887, the wives and children of Geronimo’s band were returned to them, but many had died of malaria while in confinement. Eventually the imprisoned Apaches were moved to Mount Vernon, Ala., due to a yellow fever scare, and then later on to Fort Sill in the Oklahoma Territory. Geronimo spent the last 23 years of his life as a prisoner of war until his death from pneumonia in 1909. In 1913, after 27 years of imprisonment, the Chiricahua Apaches were finally set free and were no longer prisoners-of-war. One-third opted to stay at Fort Sill, while two-thirds moved to the Mescalero Apache Reservation, in New Mexico.
Geronimo and the Chiricaua Apache’s resistance came at a steep cost. The Chiricahua lost loved ones, their lands, their traditional ways of life, and for 27 years their freedom. During Geronimo’s prime, the Chiricahua Apache had numbered 1,200. At the end of the war, in 1886, they numbered 500. By their release in 1913, they numbered only 261.
Historians would later come to define Geronimo’s legacy as one of the most legendary warriors in American history.
Today, Geronimo’s story of continued resistance against tremendous odds continues to inspire thousands of visitors to Fort Pickens every year. There are now over 850 Chiricahua Apache living in the U.S., and the descendants of Geronimo and his band still live on."
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It's actually two sticks. He probably used them for cross sticks.
Yeah, that does look like two sticks. Good observation.
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Great info Tim! The Chiricahua's all got screwed over because of Geronimo's actions with the forced displacement to FLA. Even those that served loyally as Army scouts fighting against Geronimo's band.
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Thanks for the pics and info all.
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Just another amazing photo. Geronimo and Naiche at Fort Bowie after Geronimo's last surrender.
I hiked into the old fort a few years back. Quite a hike, about 5 miles all up hill. But it was worth it just to stand on this spot.
The Apache Wars begun about mile downhill from the fort and ended at the fort.
In the picture, Geronimo is sporting some mighty fancy boots.... most likely a procurement from the US.
The other 3 pics were taken on my hike there. The site of the Bascom Affair (beginning of the Apache Wars) and a marker overlooking Fort Bowie showing a picture of how it appeared in the 1890's. So many things to take in on this hike, I think I had goosebumps the entire time!
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Trying again....
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxcB7wMd/20170502-123412-Copy.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyxJzpV1/20170502-141622.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDSHsX0t/20170502-141732.jpg)
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....and you may be asking, why was this location so important? It was the only source of water for about a 40+ mile radius.
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Spectacular photos, Mick. It looks like that uphill hike was well worth it. Great stuff, pard!
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In the picture, Geronimo is sporting some mighty fancy boots.... most likely a procurement from the US.
They don't look like cavalry boots of the time.
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No they don't Hawg..... and if you look at the pics of Gen Crook and his guys.....doesn't look like many are wearing much of anything military provided, including the boots. Military issued wool clothing is not your best friend in the desert.
There are a few articles written about those boots. He may have traded his Trap Door for them. I doubt he had them before he surrendered. The Apache's traveled super light, covering as much as 75 miles a day on foot. So I'm sure there was no extra baggage. So my guess is that he got them at the Sutlers Store at Fort Bowie. Here's some info on the store which is visible in my pic to the right center.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/hhh.az0008.sheet?st=gallery
So he must have had valuables to trade.....
On another note....the pic of the site where what is commonly called the "Bascom Affair" took place, where Lt Bascom met Cochise in what was the start of the Apache war. It was amazing to stand there. There are cliffs all round the back (not in the picture) where the Apache's held the army down. Water was only a few hundred yards away..... but it would have been a deadly trip to the spring.
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Incredible Mick!! Man I must sa that I am envious of your hike. I would absolutely love to make a hike like that!! I can only imagine how you must have felt. Did you do this hike alone? If so, that would have been extra special. Fascinating and thought provoking post Mick. Thank you for sharing your personal pictures.
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I thought this was interesting regarding LT Davis' involvement in Apache domestic affairs: :icon_scratch: Taken from:
https://www.americanheritage.com/geronimo
and The Apaches were angry because Davis, as the officer in charge of their camp, had jailed some of them for exercising two time-hopored customs: drinking tiswin (a strong beer made from corn) and beating wives. They had surrendered and come to live peacefully on the i-eservation, Chihuahua said, but they had made no agreement to alter their domestic: habits. What they drank, and how they disciplined their wives, was no business of the U.S. Army.
Davis began an explanation of why General George Crook, his commanding officer, had felt it necessary to prohibit these folkways, but he was shortly interrupted by Nana, the oldest of the Chiricahua leaders.
“Tell the Stout Chief [Davis],” Nana said harshly to the interpreter, “that he can’t advise me how to treat my women. He is only a boy. I killed men before he was born.” And with as much dignity as his bent and wrinkled body could command, Nana stalked out.
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Old ways die hard. The Tiswin parties were a rowdy debacle. Generally generating into fights and killings among the Apache's. Crooks fear was that a gathering like that could lead to an overall attack on the military. As far as wife beating goes, that just didn't sit well with Crook. However both were part of time-honored customs for the Apache's and created much animosity.
I'm not sure you can get to this link.....but it tells the full story. https://truewestmagazine.com/was-geronimo-a-drunk/
However....the term "Tiswin Drunk" may not have always been Tiswin fueled. Corn wasn't that easy to come by. They used other desert plants like agave to distill more powerful spirits too.
A wonderful book to read on the Apache's and the war is titled "Apache Wars" by Paul Hutton. It covers most everything, is well written and a pleasure to read. It delves into the culture rather deeply. It's only $6.99 for the Kindle resion and $15.99 for the paperback. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=apache+wars&crid=1E5XF7RUW24W1&sprefix=apache+wars%2Caps%2C140&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
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Thank you Mick. I am going to check that book out. My grandmother was half Indian and so I have always been fascinated by that. I am not exactly sure but I believe her Indian connection of her life was connected to the Creek. I cannot believe that I never bothered to ask her when she was here. She died back in the late 80's. She was a good woman. I think I would enjoy this read that you referenced. Thank you.
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I thought Geronimo carried a 50-70 Springfield Single Shot Rifle?
Kevin
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I thought Geronimo carried a 50-70 Springfield Single Shot Rifle?
Kevin
When he surrendered in 1877 he had an 1870 Springfield rifle in 50-70 with the stock cut down to carbine length. When he surrendered in 1886 he had an 1876 Winchester 45-70.
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I thought Geronimo carried a 50-70 Springfield Single Shot Rifle?
Kevin
When he surrendered in 1877 he had an 1870 Springfield rifle in 50-70 with the stock cut down to carbine length. When he surrendered in 1886 he had an 1876 Winchester 45-70.
Guessing that is a typo, the 1876 was chambered in 45-75. The 1886 was available in 45-70.
Kevin
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I thought Geronimo carried a 50-70 Springfield Single Shot Rifle?
Kevin
When he surrendered in 1877 he had an 1870 Springfield rifle in 50-70 with the stock cut down to carbine length. When he surrendered in 1886 he had an 1876 Winchester 45-70.
Tahk you. I thought he had a proper Springfield.
They lever gun. Is that a typo? 1876 = 45-75, 1886 = 45-70.
Kevin
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Did some more searching and getting conflicting stories. The pic of him with a Springfield with the full stock was supposedly taken in 1886 before the surrender. The 1876 came in 40-60, 45-60, 45-75 and 50-90 express. Another site has him carrying a Winchester and a revolver at the surrender in 86. https://www.historynet.com/general-nelson-miles-and-the-expedition-to-capture-geronimo/ Aguirre and six men, along with Lawton and his officers, arrived at the designated location first. No one dismounted. Suddenly, Geronimo walked in from the bush. He carried a Winchester; a revolver dangled on his left hip. An unarmed Gatewood followed him, then Wratten, Naiche and four others. The Indians held cocked rifles. They crossed half the distance to the Mexicans and halted.
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Had it not been for Gatewood, Geronimo would have been murdered on the spot. The entire story is fascinating.
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Good article, Hawg. That was quite an account of the events that took place. Thanks for the link.
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Thanks Hawg!😁 great article👍
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Given Geronimo's usual routine of surrendering .... 4 or 5 times..... it's my opinion that he would have never surrendered his favorite weapons. Those were kept in a safe place should the need arise again.
I could be wrong, the last time had them pretty much with their backs against the proverbial wall. However even with the Mexican Army as well as the largest contingent of the US Army both on his heels..... he didn't turn himself in until he felt like it.
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Very interesting didn't know any info about Geronimo
Thanks :usa-flag-89: