Colt Country | Home of The Almighty Colt
Long Guns => Smokeless Repeaters => Winchester => Topic started by: Captainkirk on December 31, 2023, 08:42:48 PM
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I've had a hankering for one of these for quite some time. The 1886 Winchester was designed by John Moses Browning to answer the need for a big bore repeater that could handle the likes of the big cartridges of the day...a hurdle that Oliver Winchester couldn't seem to leap over without making compromises as with the 1876 'Centennial' Winchester that was chambered in the following calibers:
.45-75 W.C.F.
.45-60 W.C.F.
.40-60 W.C.F.
.50-95 Express
As with all past Winchester lever actions, the weak link on all these rifles was the toggle link action that operated the bolt and kept the bolt closed against the cartridge base. The weakness becomes apparent when viewing the toggle link action. In the case of the '76 Centennial, the receiver length continued to grow in length...and subsequent weight...to accommodate the larger and longer cartridges used in the far lighter, slimmer, sleeker big bore rifles such as the Browning-designed 1885 High Wall Winchester or Remington Rolling Block actions. The story goes that the Winchester folks had finalized the purchase of JMB's 1885 Low and High Wall production rights, and while visiting him to finalize the transaction, they saw his superior design for the Big Bore '86 and made the arrangements to purchase that as well.
The 1886 was a totally different animal. Browning was able to shorten and lighten the receiver by ditching the Winchester 'elevator' and using an ingenious angled ramp design, and using solid steel locking lugs that slammed home on either side of the bolt when closed to firmly lock the bolt in place when closed. Coupling this with an 8 round tubular magazine made this one fearsome piece of artillery.
The rifle I purchased is Winchester's 'DeLuxe' version, featuring beautifully figured pistol-grip stock in Grade III/IV walnut and featuring CCH (color case hardened) hardware. Since I still haven't received my rifle yet, all I can do is post a pic from the Winchester catalog, so here you go...
Yeah, it's a looker! L@J
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Nice! Can't wait to see actual pics of your new rifle!
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Nice! Can't wait to see actual pics of your new rifle!
Me too!
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That will be a beauty. Looking forward to seeing pics of yours.
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Very nice. :cowboypistol:
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That should be a fun one Captain, I have a Rossi 92 they are a sweet smaller version.
I remember reading somewhere that Winchester bought up many Browning Patents,
just to prevent anyone else from marketing competitive products.
John Browning was definitely a genious.
AntiqueSledMan.
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That should be a fun one Captain, I have a Rossi 92 they are a sweet smaller version.
I remember reading somewhere that Winchester bought up many Browning Patents,
just to prevent anyone else from marketing competitive products.
John Browning was definitely a genious.
AntiqueSledMan.
Yes, but in a Rube Goldberg kinda way, he over complicated things many times. I watched a video on YT on "how to disassemble and clean the 1886 Winchester" and was taken aback at the complexity and time required to accomplish it! The YT video gentleman said he had streamlined the cleaning process down to it's core and had it cold at 4 hours (!!!!!) which included removing the butt stock so you could get the bolt and hammer out using special tools he had fabricated.
At that point I made the decision it would be smokeless powder only through my '86, which is sort of disappointing, but way more practical.
I have my Sharps for the Big Bore BP rounds, which I can break down in under 5 minutes.
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Maybe he did overcomplicate things but is it really feasible to stretch and beef up a 94 or 92 frame to be reliable with 45-70 loads? Now I don't know anything about an 86 but I would imagine it would be tough to lever 45-70 rounds through an oversize 94.
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Maybe he did overcomplicate things but is it really feasible to stretch and beef up a 94 or 92 frame to be reliable with 45-70 loads? Now I don't know anything about an 86 but I would imagine it would be tough to lever 45-70 rounds through an oversize 94.
You are no doubt correct. He accomplished through his ingenuity what Winchester could not. If I can find the disassembly video I'll link it.
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Here's the URL:
I don't know why the video starts in the middle? Just drag the line back to start to watch the whole thing.
https://youtu.be/v3fgm3RJn0Q?si=NKSA4xvZ-wsMx8XD
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So...I went to the LGS to fill out the paperwork last night. And ogle my new Winchester!
'Flawless' is about as good as it gets. And gorgeous as well. Of course, with our retarded liberal state gun laws, I now have to wait until after noon on Sunday to take her home. John Wayne never suffered such indignities! :cowboypistol:
All I can say is it was worth the wait and the expense. But that doesn't mean it will be a safe queen...oh, no it doesn't! So once I get it home and wiped down, I'll snap a few pix and post for you fellers!
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None of my business but may I ask how much it set you back? Feel free to say nunya. :cowboypistol:
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None of my business but may I ask how much it set you back? Feel free to say nunya. :cowboypistol:
PM sent
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Looking forward to seeing it.
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While watching that video it became clear why you intend to stick with smokeless.
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While watching that video it became clear why you intend to stick with smokeless.
Exactly my thoughts! L@J
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Antiquesledman said it just right: “John Browning was definitely a genious (sic).”
After a while and several intense sessions a guy could probably get muscle memory and Fingerspitzengefühl (finger tip feel) on that mechanism. If Captain can work Dassaults, I figger he can handle an ‘86, just fine.
[Krauts love them a compound noun, don’t they? Me too. geez.]
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Antiquesledman said it just right: “John Browning was definitely a genious (sic).”
After a while and several intense sessions a guy could probably get muscle memory and Fingerspitzengefühl (finger tip feel) on that mechanism. If Captain can work Dassaults, I figger he can handle an ‘86, just fine.
[Krauts love them a compound noun, don’t they? Me too. geez.]
Yeah, but.
Do I want to do that after every trip to the range? Verdammt, nein!
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So...
It's here.
What a glorious piece of workmanship.
I stopped in to pay the FFL transfer fee, grab my gun, and dash. But the guys at the gun shop were having none of that! The owner and sales guys were huddled around it, ogling it and asking all sorts of questions. I finally got the guy to put it back in the carton, but if they hadn't been closing soon I probably wouldn't have gotten out of there before midnight. I'll be wiping it down shortly here and trying to get all the little bits of styrofoam out of the checkering on the wood. Pictures coming soon, boys.
I'd like to pilfer a line from Jeremiah Johnson, if I may?
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: "Were it worth the trouble?"
Jeremiah Johnson " Eh? What trouble?"
Yep.
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Captain and lever guys - do you use a uniform lubricant internally or vary it according to the parts and functions?
I’m wondering whether it’s Mobile 1 at one place, white lithium on another and RemOil somewhere else. If you were to use a single lubricant, what would it be?
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Militec-1. It's the military standard for firearms. It does well on everything from guns to trains. It's compatible with petroleum, mineral, parasynthetic and synthetic oils and greases. I keep it in the shop for all kinds of applications.
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On my lever guns, I pretty much stick with Rem Oil. It's light enough that it doesn't get goo all over everything and it won't coke like petroleum products. I will use a smear (very light) of Lubriplate on heavy pressure points if disassembled or accessible with a Q-Tip.
But that's just me.
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I mostly use Rem Oil on the insides but will use whatever is handy.
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I use Rem oil too on my 1873 Winchester.
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Well, I promised!
Cell phone pix are definitely not the best, but they're better than nothing. So here we go.
(The resolution is extra large...you can slide the photo from left to right for full view)
Bird's eye view, right side. Note the wild CCH on the receiver and hardware...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460432273_c9fac24f3c_4k.jpg)
Bird's eye of the north end.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460432908_d22bada426_4k.jpg)
Up close and personal. Note the locking lug visible on the bottom of the receiver next to the lever.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460433308_66097d1c86_4k.jpg)
Here you can see the entire lever is color case hardened (CCH) and the pistol grip portion is checkered
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460302356_0378ed76d8_4k.jpg)
View of the tang safety. I really like the location and ease with which you can slide it off without looking. Yes, it does get in the way if you want to install a tang peep sight, but the receiver is drilled and tapped for a receiver peep if you need to go there.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460610704_9903b7fdc3_4k.jpg)
Another view of the checkering...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459380317_7632fe9104_4k.jpg)
Rear buckhorn sight, also showing forearm checkering.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459380787_d74cf5a9bf_4k.jpg)
Crescent buttplate, also CCH...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460436768_d163e3ed34_4k.jpg)
Left side of receiver. Note the two small screws for mounting a receiver peep.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460437463_3f8ecab7bc_4k.jpg)
View of one of the bolt locking lugs retracted...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53460306496_86cca07376_4k.jpg)
...and home and locked. You can easily see why this John M. Browning design can easily handle the big, bad, big-bore cartridges of the day such as .45/70 Gov't and .50-110 WCF. With those lugs locked on either side of the bolt, it's not going anywhere!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459383807_d482f3d818_4k.jpg)
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Man, what a beautiful rifle! Congratulations. Can't wait to hear how it shoots.
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Man, what a beautiful rifle! Congratulations. Can't wait to hear how it shoots.
Thanks, Marshal! Maybe a bit of overkill but I'm not sorry!
When we unboxed it at the FFL, not only was a crowd of levergun guys huddled around it, but the the owner of the shop, after admiring it, asked me if I was going to shoot it.
Does a bear defecate in the forest undergrowth?
Darned tootin' Cap'n be shootin'!
Safe Queens need not apply...
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Looks good!
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Beyootiful rifle Cap. That looks like a larger version of the 1892. I guess technically the 92 looks like a smaller version of the 86. I didn't like tearing down my 92 either but with the 44-40 cartridges I didn't have to tear it down to clean it after shooting bp.
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You lucky man
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Beyootiful rifle Cap. That looks like a larger version of the 1892. I guess technically the 92 looks like a smaller version of the 86. I didn't like tearing down my 92 either but with the 44-40 cartridges I didn't have to tear it down to clean it after shooting bp.
I agree Cap, that rifle looks awesome. I'm jealous.
Hawg, interesting. Please explain why you didn't have to clean your '92 after using 44.40 cartridges? Like hear more.
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Hawg, interesting. Please explain why you didn't have to clean your '92 after using 44.40 cartridges? Like hear more.
I didn't say I didn't have to clean it. I just didn't tear it down to do it. The 44-40 is a bottleneck cartridge with a thin case neck. When it's fired the neck expands to completely seal the chamber from blow back. Powder residue can't get inside the action. The only way powder residue can get into it is from cleaning. When you push all that fouling out of the barrel with a patch it will get into the action but if you leave a fired cartridge in the chamber when you clean it the cartridge catches it all.
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Hawg, interesting. Please explain why you didn't have to clean your '92 after using 44.40 cartridges? Like hear more.
I didn't say I didn't have to clean it. I just didn't tear it down to do it. The 44-40 is a bottleneck cartridge with a thin case neck. When it's fired the neck expands to completely seal the chamber from blow back. Powder residue can't get inside the action. The only way powder residue can get into it is from cleaning. When you push all that fouling out of the barrel with a patch it will get into the action but if you leave a fired cartridge in the chamber when you clean it the cartridge catches it all.
I understand now. Thank you for clarifying. I've never had the pleasure to fire a 44.40 cartridge so that's a good thing to know. Sounds like a good round.
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Hawg is correct. This is why I prefer a .44-40 WCF over a .45LC (straight wall case) in a BP lever action. Same goes for other bottleneck BP carts like the .38-55 and such.
If you're shooting smokeless, it's no different than cleaning any other smokeless rifle.
The big deal with the '86 is the complexity of the action. You need to pull the buttstock off the '86 to get at the mainspring and innards just to clean the darn thing.
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Cap, in spite of having to remove the butt stock on your '86 are you still glad you bought it? It's mighty nice looking.
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Cap, in spite of having to remove the butt stock on your '86 are you still glad you bought it? It's mighty nice looking.
I'm only gonna shoot smokeless. So I'll probably have to remove the buttstock, like...never?
Yes. Still super-hyped about it and don't regret it one second
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Thats a great looking rifle Cap
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Cap, in spite of having to remove the butt stock on your '86 are you still glad you bought it? It's mighty nice looking.
I'm only gonna shoot smokeless. So I'll probably have to remove the buttstock, like...never?
Yes. Still super-hyped about it and don't regret it one second
I think you have the right plan for this rifle. Maybe some day you might take it apart to do a deep cleaning but not for normal course of cleaning.
My cousin had a model 92 Hollywood gun that had many years of BP blanks run through it. It was extremely accurate and serviceable. He only bore cleaned it. With smokeless, you should have no problems.
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I have an 1892 in 44-40, I have completely broken it down for cleaning and just wiped the action and bore swabbed. It was virtually clean inside when I did the tear down cleaning. I have only used BP cartridges in it. The 44 WCF cartridge really does make for a clean firing rifle.
Edited to say also....
Very nice rifle Capt'n. I'm jealous, I would happily fire BP cartridges and tear that rifle down every time I fired it.
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I have an 1892 in 44-40, I have completely broken it down for cleaning and just wiped the action and bore swabbed. It was virtually clean inside when I did the tear down cleaning. I have only used BP cartridges in it. The 44 WCF cartridge really does make for a clean firing rifle.
Ditto, I fire 44-40 black powder cartridges in my 1873 lever gun and the action needs only a quick wiping when I clean the bore using a fired case.
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...The 44 WCF cartridge really does make for a clean firing rifle...
Amen to that. The way a bottleneck cartridge seals is why the original Colt Lightning rifles were mostly in 38-40. I bought a replica one in 45 Colt and it always blew back severely in my face so I got rid of it. Had it been in 44-40 or 38-40, I'd probably still have it. That was an expensive lesson.
A friend of mine has an 1886 in 45-70 and it has no blow back at all. Perfect chamber sealing with that cartridge, too.
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First off, a huge thanks to all you fellers that complimented my new thunderstick!
I love this thing and I haven't even shot it yet. I knew before I ordered it it was gonna be a smokeless pony. Same as my 1885 High Wall. I do have my Sharps in .45/70 BPCR for shooting the BP carts and that huge 535gr Postell bullet. It's all a part of the fun and variety.
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First off, a huge thanks to all you fellers that complimented my new thunderstick!
Seriously? How could we not? :icon_scratch: