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Welcomes and General Information => Knowledge Vault => Colt Capsuckers => Topic started by: ssb73q on January 31, 2015, 04:53:27 AM
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Hi, there will forever be the argument on whether the Remingtons or Colt revolvers are the superior design BP revolver. There is one serious reliability issue for the Colt family of revolvers, Cap Sucking. That is were a cap part from a previous shot falls into the action that prevents further shooting of the handgun. This problem can be mild for the larger Colts, like the 1860 Colt, or severe for the small framed Colts like the 1849 Colt. One learns to do either the revolver in the air, or wrist twist shuffle to recock the revolver hoping that the cap jamming parts fall away from the revolver.
Mike has a video where he experienced cap sucking when testing a new Colt 1862 Police, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibpoDPPKqB8
CapandBall experianced the same thing testing the Colt 1862 Navy, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Q9cczvG30
CapandBall discussed how to minimize cap sucking in this video, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrM7TE9eJI
The best explanation I have found on why cap sucking occurs is that the cap get pushed into the hammer safety gap and then recocking the revolver pulls the spent cap off the nipple allowing it to fall into the action.
While Mike's solution to cap sucking is simple, filling in the hammer groove with epoxy, I reject that method in that it removes the safety aspects of placing the hammer down on a cylinder pin. Doing the epoxy hammer gap fill mod forever more turns a six shooter or five shooter into a six shooter or five shooter minus one.
The solution that CapandBall discusses requires a gunsmith to put a pin in the revolver frame such that when the hammer is pulled back, it separates the hammer from the cap allowing the spent cap to remain on the nipple.
I have a few questions:
Has anyone here had a pin added to their Colt frame?
Did it work?
Were there any problems with the pin added to the frame?
Is this mod reversible?
Where can I get the frame pin work done and what is the cost?
Does this really need a gunsmith, or can it be done at home?
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, after making the previous post I remembered that last year's testing of a new Pietta 1851 Yank snub revolver where I didn't have any cap sucking, see:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=709.msg5401#msg5401
I got that Yank out of my gunsafe to examine the revolver's hammer face. The safety groove on the Yank is different than on all my other Colts that cap suck. The safety groove of the Yank looks like the safety groove entrance cut in the hammer face is melted smooth with no sharp edges like there is with the other Colts. This provides a slight taper instead of a sharp perpendicular edge.
This has me wondering if a slight stoning of the Colt hammer face safety groove edge would produce a similar surface that doesn't hold a spent cap like the sharp grooved hammers faces do?
This is something I will need to try.
Regards,
Richard
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Has anyone here had a pin added to their Colt frame?
Did it work?
Were there any problems with the pin added to the frame?
Is this mod reversible?
Where can I get the frame pin work done and what is the cost?
Does this really need a gunsmith, or can it be done at home?
Regards,
Richard
1. I've had it done to a pair of 1861 Navies used in CAS competition, and a 3rd Model Dragoon.
2. It works
3. No.
4. Yes.
5. Mike Brackett aka 45Dragoon (goonsgunworks@gmail.com)
6. I'd say it would take a drill press & mill; but I'm not a machinist
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Hi Fingers, thank you for the reply. I have eight Colts that would need the pin, the cost concerns me. I could probably buy another 2-3 new BP revolvers for the cost of pin modification. Maybe just modify a couple that I shoot most often?
While Colts cap suck, they always go bang the first shot, not a bad thing at all. While I have seven 1858 Remmys, for the pure joy of shooting pleasure, nothing beats a Colt. My 1851 Colts are the most accurate handguns I own, and I own a number of moderns.
BTW do you know if the pin modification interferes with use of conversion cylinders? Does the mod widen or deepen the safety notch in the hammer face?
Again, thanks for your reply.
Regards,
Richard
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Has anyone here had a pin added to their Colt frame?
Did it work?
Were there any problems with the pin added to the frame?
Is this mod reversible?
Where can I get the frame pin work done and what is the cost?
Does this really need a gunsmith, or can it be done at home?
Regards,
Richard
Richard,
Yes, I have done it to several of my revolves and it works. So far, no problems. The modification is reversible by filing down the pin. I did the installation with a corded drill, drill bit and hammer. I drilled the hole in the frame directly in front of the hammer slot. Using the shaft of the drill bit, I measured the depth of the hole. I cut the bit about 3/16"longer then the depth of the hole and placed the cut end in the hole. A set punch and hammer seated the pin. I did have to dress one pin down to clear the hammer notch because I cut the pin too long.
Kevin
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Hi StrawHat, thanks for the information. Did you find the frame case hardening a problem drilling through?
I have a drill press and good drilling vise which should be easier than using a hand drill. I would sure hate to hurt a revolver. A good thing is that the hole is where it can't be easily seen and filled in if I screw up. However, I'm going to try tapering the hammer safety notch first.
Regards,
Richard
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BTW do you know if the pin modification interferes with use of conversion cylinders? Does the mod widen or deepen the safety notch in the hammer face?
Regards,
Richard
Pin mod shouldn't interfere with a conversion cylinder. Safety notch would need to be widened and deepened; but, amount would depend on size of the pin installed.
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BTW do you know if the pin modification interferes with use of conversion cylinders? Does the mod widen or deepen the safety notch in the hammer face?
Regards,
Richard
...Safety notch would need to be widened and deepened; but, amount would depend on size of the pin installed...
I forgot to mention that the slot should be widened, if necessary, to accept the new pin and engage the safety pins on the cylinder.
Kevin
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BTW do you know if the pin modification interferes with use of conversion cylinders? Does the mod widen or deepen the safety notch in the hammer face?
Regards,
Richard
...Safety notch would need to be widened and deepened; but, amount would depend on size of the pin installed...
I forgot to mention that the slot should be widened, if necessary, to accept the new pin and engage the safety pins on the cylinder.
Kevin
Hi StrawHat, IMO widening the hammer slot would be problematic for conversion cylinder use.
Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Richard
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...BTW do you know if the pin modification interferes with use of conversion cylinders? Does the mod widen or deepen the safety notch in the hammer face?...
Richard, I widen the cut in the hammer just enough to clear the pin. I use a drill bit between 1/16" and 3/32" not much more than the existing notch.
The case coloring on the frames is merely coloring, it does not harden it to any extent. A center punch is helpful to start the hole.
As for a conversion, I do not have any so that, to me, is an unknown.
Kevin
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You know, I sometimes wonder if the whole cap-sucking phenomena is a function of the safety notch and the fact that our modern replicas have hammers that are far too long. Take a look at any replica that is extensively dry fired; the hammer will have a huge donut where the face is smashing into the cones.
I do believe the originals were regulated to just go far enough to ignite the cap, then strike the frame; Remington states that this was the case in the Remington revolvers, and I'm sure this was the case with Colts as well. It's a fine adjustment, of course, but not having the hammer smashing into the cap with so much force might make a difference. It doesn't take that much force to set off a percussion cap, after all, and most hammers are grossly over-length at the face, which damages both the hammer and the cones as well over time.
Just some food for thought.
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Well, putting the Epoxy Steel in the hammer face of a 3rd Generation Colt Navy to do away with the cap slot in the hammer face DOES NOT WORK!!!
A gunsmith friend of mine tried that. On the 30th shot, the Epoxy Steel fell out of the hammer face and jammed the action!
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Well, putting the Epoxy Steel in the hammer face of a 3rd Generation Colt Navy to do away with the cap slot in the hammer face DOES NOT WORK!!!
A gunsmith friend of mine tried that. On the 30th shot, the Epoxy Steel fell out of the hammer face and jammed the action!
Hi Southron, I actually purchased a wire welder to fill the hammer gap. However, the more I thought about it, the more I decided to keep the gap that is a safety feature. I have a theory that putting a slight taper in the gap would allow the hammer to be pulled back without pulling the caps off the nipples into the action. I have yet tried doing this. The jury is still out.
Regards,
Richard
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Could anyone who has done this mod post up some photos of the completed mod?
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Which mod?
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Which mod?
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
The cap rake, Mike.
You still want to have a crack at that '60 Army we spoke about?
PM me....
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Gently smoothed the slots of the hammer faces. No metal removed to speak of
but Pietta Colt hammer face slots can have tiny burrs on the edges of them which I smoothed a bit. Just a little. Spent caps nearly always stay on the cones till I flick them off with my fingernail or a little piece of wood stick. I have always had good luck with caps staying put.
Im no smith and my guns are way well short of being Goonerized but they work pretty well in their own little way.
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Gently smoothed the slots of the hammer faces. No metal removed to speak of
but Pietta Colt hammer face slots can have tiny burrs on the edges of them which I smoothed a bit. Just a little. Spent caps nearly always stay on the cones till I flick them off with my fingernail or a little piece of wood stick. I have always had good luck with caps staying put.
Im no smith and my guns are way well short of being Goonerized but they work pretty well in their own little way.
Hi G Dog, I speculated on the rough edges of the hammer slot before, see:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=960.msg7396#msg7396
I own a very narrow stone that I wanted to try on my most cap sucking colts, the 1849s, but never did to date. Your result confirms my conjecture. The next time I have an 1849 out I will first stone the hammer gap and see what happens. Thanks for your post.
Regards,
Richard
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Well, can't say whether my '60 Army was a cap sucker or not, never having fired it. But it will be returning from the Goon with a cap rake, so we will definitely know if it is afterwards!
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Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.
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Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.
I never had a problem with cap sucking. Yeah I get one now and then but it's not like there's a lot of them. It irks me more to have caps not split and practically weld themselves to the nipple.
'
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They've only been mildly problematic for me as well. Others here seem to be plagued with it. I attirbute most of my good fortune to the Remington #10 caps.
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My pics are too big here but I have pics at gunslingers gulch.
Go to forums, then down to builds and re- builds, then the thread Bolt Block Hammer stop etc.. First page shows an arbor set screw, action stop, bolt block and of course the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Very nice, Mike. If those pix are on a server they can be resized to show here. If you can't do that, with your permission of course, I can copy and resize and post one or all of them here.
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They've only been mildly problematic for me as well. Others here seem to be plagued with it. I attirbute most of my good fortune to the Remington #10 caps.
I mostly use CCI caps so there goes that theory. *6' If I had a cap sucking problem I would just live with it. A cap post would bug me to no end and I would never use the gun because of it and I won't JB Weld one because I use the safety pins.
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Cap! That'd be great!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hawg,
Why would the post bother you?
Kevin
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Because it's something that shouldn't be there. I'm too much of a traditionalist. I can live with a few mods but nothing extreme like adding parts that shouldn't be there. The washers in a Uberti arbor hole I can live with but that's about it.
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Because it's something that shouldn't be there. I'm too much of a traditionalist. I can live with a few mods but nothing extreme like adding parts that shouldn't be there. The washers in a Uberti arbor hole I can live with but that's about it.
Hi Hawg, that's where I am. I like firearms as close to stock as possible. I went through years of wasting money and time adding performance parts to my 1911s, but returned them to stock. Seems that the stock handguns always shoot better than me and the performance parts added unreliability. I even put faux ivory grips on my Colt 1873, but returned to the original grips. I like seeing that pony. If I want to return the Uberti Colt revolvers to "as built" I can even knock off the brass washer off the end of the revolver. If I ever offer for sale any of my arbor length mods for sale, I will offer the buyer that I will remove the arbor extension if they choose.
Regards,
Richard
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Seem to recall a post over at The Open Range forum about "Making A Colt Cap And Ball Revolver Work (http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf)" where a feller spelled out how exactly to do the mod if yer still wanting that info (just click on the link)!
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Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.
Maybee try something like silver solder as it is even easier and less heat than brazing, and easilly reversed.
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They've only been mildly problematic for me as well. Others here seem to be plagued with it. I attirbute most of my good fortune to the Remington #10 caps.
This past weekend when I was out shooting i had only 1 cap hang problem out of the following colts:
1847, 1851, 1860 and an 1851/60 mutt
The mutt appearred to have a cap fall down between the hammer and frame. I popped the wedge out and slid the bbl and cyl off a bit and got it loose, and back together.. whole ordeal maybee less than a minute. Ran a couple/few cyls thru each of those as well as a few thru an 1858 and a revolver carbine.
( no wonder I ran out of powder and balls sunday. :) )
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Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.
Maybee try something like silver solder as it is even easier and less heat than brazing, and easilly reversed.
Hi sound, last year I purchased a wire welder from Harbor Freight expecting to fill in Colt hammer slots with steel. Only yesterday did I use the welder for the first time repairing an 1858 carbine hammer face. The person I bought the carbine from filed off the lower portion of the hammer face with the intent that it would fit better in the cylinder safety slots. The unintended consequence was that the hammer didn't completely cover the cap where blowback gas and cap parts would hit one in the face on firing. I built up the hammer face with the wire welder steel and filed the hammer face into the correct shape. While not a wire welder virgin anymore, filling in the Colt hammer face slots will require more skill than I currently have. Your comment on using silver solder may be the easy perfect long lasting solution.
Regards,
Richard
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Since this seems to possibly be a modern problem (I don't know) the "modern" and reversible fix so far seems to be the cap post. This mod should allow the "keep it factory" crowd somewhat happy because:
- it allows the use of the safety pins
- filling the safety slot in the hammer face isn't "original"
- it keeps the fragments from falling into the action
as a plus:
- it brings "reliability" to the revolver
- it's at least one of the ingredients that gives the ability for a cap& ball revolver to be fanned (something a lot of folks have never seen or heard of) which is a testament to how well the mod works.
If "originality" is what one is after, keeping the safety pin/pins operational and yes , the " often discussed " arbor fitment/ fix are things that all 1st gens had as "orig. equipment " (those that had the safety pin or pins).
So, the way I see it, if you're going to do anything as a "solution" to "our" problem but want to keep the revolver in question as " close to stock as possible " ( meaning it should have a correct arbor setup and the "safety devices" in place), a cap post would allow all the "originals" to stay while adding reliability to the mix. (Hawg, the only time you see it is when it's cocked ( even thought you'd know it's there . . . . I know . . . lol)). It's a dilemma . . . . . .
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Meybe keep a "filled" hammer (one with the safety pin slot welded up of "JB Welded" up,) and another hammer fer when yer not shooting it (have ta take it apart to clean it anyway after ya shoot - 'course the 'before ya shoot' could be a annoyance [ta me anyway, course being "h-c" ain't me anyway -] that way you'd be "good ta go" at the range and could still be "h-c" on display)!
JMHO, fer what it's worth.
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Well, you'd be right fogey if you think that is a good "fix". I don't particularly think it's a fx at all because, it does nothing to keep the frags from the action. The cap frags that tear away and or just fall away are more likely than not going to fall into the action. Also, the whole point of loading all 5 or 6 is lost because you have the " wrong" hammer installed.
Another problem (for me anyway) is a tuned revolver means a whole different hammer probably isn't going to work and may not function at all! (So maybe it's just a display hammer? Lol) If swapping the trigger and bolt screw pins can interrupt the function of a tuned revolver, a hammer may be quite the headache! Good thinkin though fogey!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, what concerns me about the cap rake is when used with conversion cylinders. If the hammer slot needs to be opened up to accommodate the cap rake, it creates a situation where the firing pins (contact area) of conversion cylinders get smacked harder than necessary. That may cause premature firing pin distortion.
BTW, I noticed that even the cap rake didn't keep bushhippie from having cap jams. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds using the 1858 and never had a cap jam issue. All my Colts are problematic for cap jams, the smaller the Colt style revolver the more the cap sucking. The only Colt style revolvers that I own that don't have cap sucking issues have a hammer groove that has the slot edges "melted" round. That seems to keep the caps from being pulled off the nipples. IMO this is an observation that should be useful to Colt users, taper and round the hammer slot.
Regards,
Richard
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Richard,
The slot need not be opened up for the cap post so there's no need for concern.
Also, the first gens didn't have rounded slots on the hammer face. The one I have in my possession has sharp corners (though it is a little more narrow). The narrowness of the slot may be key. I'll get a pic. If that's the case, welding up and recutting a narrow slot would be the ticket. (Would make my job easier!!)
You'll notice that "Cap jams" happen when the hammer isn't thumbed back forcefully (also, may have been "home made" caps). You'll also notice that no cap jams happen while fanning. If "Alice" goes to the range, "she" may have an occasional problem. If you'll "cock it like a man", it'll be fine (lol)!
I believe our own "Fingers" shot a pair of '61s 160+ rounds each with no jams.
Given the results I hear, less jams will occur with a cap post over a filled in slot.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Good points, Mike.
The problem with JB Weld (as Mike Beliveau likes to use) is that it's not "weld" (as the name implies) at all...it's simply a two part structural adhesive (epoxy). They can and do work fine in a static environment. But add oil, grease, fouling, heat metal-to-metal contact and percussive explosion and your chances of longevity decrease dramatically. There; I said it....
The problem with silver solder is that it's solder, therefore tin and lead. Sure, it's hard lead, but if you put a bead of silver solder on your vise anvil and whack it with a hammer, it's gonna turn into a thin, hard flat disc. Much moreso than a bead of braze material.
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I like the cap rake and have it in several revolvers. They work. Another solution that works is to get to the supply house and order a lifetime supply of whatever cap you want to use. If that is one tin, great, if that means you are buying a pallet of percussion caps, well, buy it. When you get home buy yourself as many cones as you need to fit to all of the cylinders you will be using, plus about 20 more. Buy them larger than will accept the caps. Now, the fun part. You need to turn the cone to be a snug fit with the cap. A very snug fit. Not tight, but snug. You will then fit the cones to the cylinders and when used, the caps will stay in place after firing. You may have to pry them off but I have not encountered that problem as most times the caps split a bit and come off easily. The snug fitting cap also helps keep moisture out of the chamber.
Yes, it is a bit of fun doing this but it is more historically correct than the rake.
Kevin
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45 Dragoon:
"* * * . . . Well, you'd be right fogey if you think that is a good "fix". . . .* * *"
Wouldn't count as a "fix", more like a "work-around" Mike! Can't say it'd be a "fix" cause nothin' be "fixed" other than having a "hysterically correct" gun to look at when ya ain't shooting it, complete with period correct cap jam making mechanism fault and flaws uncorrected, just my opine (and - just like buttholes - we knowed every a-hole comes complete with one)!
:-H
(Yep, thar be mine!)!
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Hi, as the Captain points out, regular lead/tin solder is probably too soft to use to fill the Colt hammer slot. Brazing is a good answer, but the high temperature requires a gas/air torch and probably affects the hammer metal. IMO there is a compromise, use a lower flow point solder than 15% silver solder. I ordered this 6% silver solder and will give it a try:
http://www.amazon.com/Forney-38116-Silver-Fluxing-6-Percent/dp/B000PSB6KU?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
The application temperature is 400-700-degree F and the tensile strength is 20kPSI. This my be the perfect Colt cap sucking solution?
Time will tell.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, the 6% silver solder is due to arrive today. In preperation I took two extra parts Pietta 1851/1860 hammers and used a dremel to clean off the bluing and any case hardening. This is a raw hammer:
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a549/ssb73q/Clean1_zpscdyimod4.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/ssb73q/media/Clean1_zpscdyimod4.jpg.html)
This is the cleaned up hammer ready for silver solder:
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a549/ssb73q/Clean2_zpsgh3d2ifa.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/ssb73q/media/Clean2_zpsgh3d2ifa.jpg.html)
May get to do the soldering tonight.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, the 6% silver solder arrived and easily filled the hammer slot. The solder isn't as hard as I thought it would be and filed into shape without any effort. The filled hammer slot:
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a549/ssb73q/Clean3_zpspmdnszim.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/ssb73q/media/Clean3_zpspmdnszim.jpg.html)
I'm going to give my wire welder a try filling the gap of the other hammer slot. Maybe with some additional practice I will become proficient with the wire welder.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, this last weekend my son-in-law brought out his Pietta 1851 revolver that I gave him for Christmas. I had a number of cylinders already preloaded for him to use. It didn't take but the 2nd or 3rd shot for him to experience cap sucking. Caps stuck to the hammer, and caps falling in between the hammer and frame were experienced. A little training on the wrist twist, or overhead hammer operation minimized the cap sucking. After shooting was completed, I asked him how he like his 1851. He said shooting the 1851 was fun, but not 100% reliable as his 1858 Remington. Then I asked him which is the most attractive revolver, the 1851 or 1858. The 1851 was his preferred best looking and fun to shoot revolver.
I offered to replace his 1851 hammer with a replacement hammer where the hammer slot is filled in. His decision was to keep the hammer slot so that the Colt safety feature remained intact. With his current skill level, I couldn't disagree.
Regards,
Richard
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Too bad he couldn't be offered a cap post and see how reliable his '51could be. Reliability brings joy to shooting modern cap and ball revolvers. I've had many folks thank me for doing just that to what once was a disappointing outing at best. Not really me, but just the addition of something so simple as a cap post. These aren't precious museum quality pieces, just everyday reproductions that offer great satisfaction or great frustration.
Just keep forging ahead
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, IMO the cap rake is less than a perfect solution to cap sucking. If the cap is able to come off the nipple even a little bit, it is a candidate for getting in the action of the revolver. If not concerned on using the cylinder pin safeties, IMO the solid face hammer is superior. Of course this is my opinion that may be very wrong.
The couple of 1851/1860s that I have that have never had cap sucking have hammer notch edges that are slight rounded, kind of like "melted". Then the caps don't stick to the hammer face. IMO engineer the method to radius the hammer notch and we then have no cap sucking and still have the Colt safety.
Retards,
Richard
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I can't figure out why so many have a problem with cap sucking. I get one now and then but nowhere near the extent of the complaints I see about them. I have just about as many cap problems with Remingtons as I do with Colt's which isn't very many.
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Hi Hawg, it's interesting our different experiences. I have fired many many thousand rounds using both the Pietta and Uberti 1858 Remington's an have never, yes never ever, had a cap jam. The cap jam propensity I experience is inversely proportional to the size of the Colt. Other than the Colts I own that have the melted hammer safety notch edges, all my Colts cap suck were I would never consider a Colt for a personal protection firearm. I would have no problem using an 1858 for personal defense if I didn't already own better modern handgun choices.
Some day we are going to get to the bottom of the Colt cap sucking problem, I hope.
I think that a lot of the cap sucking problems are because caps today are different than when first used in the day of the percussion revolver model introduction.
BTW, I'm glad you got your SS issues resolved.
Regards,
Richard
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Hello Richard and I figgered that you would think that.
IMO, the cap post FAR exceeds the solid hammer as I like keeping the option of a fully loaded revolver (not to mention most CASS/SASS shooters would agree that the solid hammer is less than perfect and the post is close to perfect . . . but then who are they?).
The fact that the cap does come loose and the fact that a post is therefore between it and the hammer means the hammer will not pull the cap and or frags to the rear and allow access to the action. With a revolving cyl to deflect the spent cap away and to the right, you can't ask for better performance.
The slow motion footage at the end of Brushhippies fanning of the '51 shows the caps flying off to the right . . . . just like they're supposed to, if they don't stay on the nipple.
The post or rake doesn't take anything away from the revolver, is heralded as the best solution by those in Competition (I get asked weekly about them) and isn't cap/nipple sensitive.
The solid hammer still allows caps that come loose after firing to fall back into the action ( there's nothing to keep that from happening) , removes the ability to use the safety pins, and puts the burden of finding the "right cap with the right nipple and the right charge" ( to hopefully have the caps not come off the nipple after firing) on the shooter and hopefully able to keep a supply of the appropriate caps (not certain with todays situation). Not what I would call a solution in the least, more of a hopefull hindrance. Of course, that's my opinion.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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I use Piettas with stock cones and CCI #10s and dont have hardly any cap problems on either Colts or Remingtons.
I think that a lot of the cap sucking problems are because caps today are different than when first used in the day of the percussion revolver model introduction.
Regards,
Richard
Aside from staying on the nipple, what do you think the differences are in mid-19th Century caps and the ones available today?
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Hi G Dog, I have similar cap sucking issues using either CCI or Remington caps.
I'm only guessing, but maybe the back-in-the-day caps were thicker gauge metal? Maybe the ignition mixture was milder where the cap didn't fragment?
BTW, I never have cap sucking issues using conversion cylinders. *6' *6' *6'
Regards,
Richard
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Caps back in the day were thicker and made from copper. I doubt there was ever an issue with cap sucking or falling into the action.
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If'n you have a cap-sucking problem when shootin' a conversion cylinder, maybe ya should switch ta lolly pops (worked fer that bald-headed Telly Savalous feller waay back in the '70's)! :-H
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Hawg's right. I've fired hundreds of 10 mil annealed 4 petal copper caps, they work better. They'd also cost about twice as much to manufacture as modern caps, so forget about ever seeing them on the market. I cock muzzle up, and haven't had enough cap problems to worry about even with modern caps, which is what I mostly use. Smoothing the notch, adding a post, packing two pistols, or buying a Remington all sound like worthwhile solutions, pretty much a matter of individual preference I suppose.
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If anyone is interested here are some pics of a couple of caps that stuck to the safety slot in the hammer of the Pietta Navy at the range Tuesday. It certainly shows how a cap rake would prevent such jams for those that want to go that route. The cap material was actually pierced by the metal at the base of the slot. After about 130 rounds, the slot had become peened in slightly. I stoned the base of the slot slightly to make the angles on the hammer slot so they are less sharp where they penetrated the cap which was a CCI 10. Won't know if that helped until I get to the range again. It still was not a much problem with CCI 10 caps the gun likes.
Regards
Gary
Pic of hammer face.
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh494/clementg1/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1445_zpspt3b7dmv.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/clementg1/media/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1445_zpspt3b7dmv.jpg.html)
Pic of cap stuck to Hammer
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh494/clementg1/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1409_zpsuyqcw4jq.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/clementg1/media/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1409_zpsuyqcw4jq.jpg.html)
Pic of the cap
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh494/clementg1/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1420_zpsmgvmrdjf.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/clementg1/media/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1420_zpsmgvmrdjf.jpg.html)
Another one stuck to the hammer
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh494/clementg1/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1408_zps5zljnske.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/clementg1/media/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1408_zps5zljnske.jpg.html)
Pic of that cap
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh494/clementg1/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1422_zpswrrf4yfb.jpg) (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/clementg1/media/Capandball/Cap%20jams/100_1422_zpswrrf4yfb.jpg.html)
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Thanks GaryC. The cap posts work very well. I hear reports constantly about how well they work. Unfortunately, I'll never hear these words from Hawg!! *6'
It's just a good, reliable, modern fix to a "modern" problem. I think after looking at a first gen though, the slot in the hammer is definitely wider in the reproductions. So, welding it up and cutting a narrow (pin width, even a hole instead of a slot?) slot might work. The only problem left with that though is a loose cap (our modern caps will blow off of the cone with back pressure) falling into the action.
Something to think about . . . .
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Thanks GaryC. The cap posts work very well. I hear reports constantly about how well they work. Unfortunately, I'll never hear these words from Hawg!! *6'
No, you wont. I consider them to be an abomination, )H^ but then y'all know how persnickety I am.
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Hi Mike, a Colt is a Colt, it's going to have cap parts lockup the action. Rake or filled in slot, the Colt will fail to reliably fire. You know I recently filled in the hammer slot of a Pietta 1851/1860 hammer, see:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=960.msg15756#msg15756
I'm a lazy bastard and haven't yet tested that hammer. A couple of days ago I shot one of my 1860s and had a few cap jams. One of them was so severe that the cap appeared welded to the hammer face, like what Gary reported. It took a number of minutes with a sharp small screwdriver to get the cap parts freed from the hammer slot.
While I rarely agree with Hawg ( )lI )lI), I really don't like the idea of a cap rake. Is that rational, probably not, but that's where I am. I don,t like adding something that Colt didn't design in. My philosophy is to fill in the hammer gap and load only 5, keeping the hammer down on an empty chamber. That's how I run my Colt 1873, the preferred method for carry safety.
Bottom line is that we will never depend on using a C&B for personal defense. Why even bother with any modification not already built in? Ok, go ahead and whip me.
Regards,
Richard
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Not gonna whip anybody.
I just do what my customers want and the cap post is one of the most sought after mods by far. Mostly from folks that shoot competition. Competition is where mods that work are separated from those that don't. Just like auto racing, the competitive edge gives the rest of the auto market the best upgrades.
Nobody has to have mods done or do mods themselves, it's like anything else that one decides. I've said before, the mods I've chosen were done so for the longevity and reliability of the revolver (mainly open tops). They seem to work and that's why I do what I do.
So, when someone asks how to . . . I offer what works for me and my customers.
As far as your last question, for the same reason we don't still drive Model T's for everyday transportation.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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My whole point (this is for everybody, not picking on Richard or anybody else) for doing what I do is quite simply, to make the most popular and best looking revolvers of our past ( the Colt open top) , to be as reliable as possible, easier handling than most any modern revolver and an action that functions with the accuracy of the highest attainable in a S.A. revolver.
That's it. As far as I'm concerned, I'm as close as I've ever been and if there's anything I can do to make it any better, that is my search. (I'm a little bit anal about it )
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Or we could just petition the cap makers to go back to making caps the old way. Yeah, all 50 of us would make an impact!
Kevin
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(7+"
Agreed!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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All we have to do is locate one of the old 1860's cap making machines at a garage sale or something, and haul it to the Colt Forum Clubhouse. When a member needs some caps he can go to the Clubhouse, fire up the steam boiler, and run off a batch. Members with long hair will need to wear hair nets, and smoking while the machine is in operation will have to be discouraged. (7&
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Hair net my hind end. *9+
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Hawg, I don't want to think what would happen if your golden tresses got tangled in one of the drive belts, you'd come out the other end of the machine looking like the Shawnees caught you poaching deer. (jh
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Hair net my hind end. *9+
Hi Hawg, hairnet over your hind end? I want to see that!! :-H :-H :-H :-H
Regards,
Richard
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Hawg, I don't want to think what would happen if your golden tresses got tangled in one of the drive belts, you'd come out the other end of the machine looking like the Shawnees caught you poaching deer. (jh
Once upon a time long long ago I worked in a machine shop with hair almost to my waist. I ran six different milling machines and a thread lathe and never got it caught up in anything. It's a lot shorter now and I think I can handle a simple steam powered cap maker. :-*
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Hair net my hind end. *9+
Hi Hawg, hairnet over your hind end? I want to see that!! :-H :-H :-H :-H
Regards,
Richard
Trust me, you don't. *6'
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(7+"
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Grinder grabbed my shirt sleeve once Hawg, creepy when a machine tries to eat you in a single gulp! Since you won't wear the hair net, I suppose you're gonna whine about wearing the floral print slippers with pink anti-static pompoms too. I guess we can expect a massive explosion followed by you flying through the air attached by your hair to an antique cap making machine. Blue tarp time for the clubhouse.
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Since you won't wear the hair net, I suppose you're gonna whine about wearing the floral print slippers with pink anti-static pompoms too.
Whine is too mild of a word. L@.
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Hi, has anyone here tried using aquarium tubing as a solution to cap jamming? How did it work out for you?
Regards,
Richard
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I've tried aquarium tube. More trouble than it was worth IMHO.
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Hi, the 6% silver solder arrived and easily filled the hammer slot. The solder isn't as hard as I thought it would be and filed into shape without any effort. The filled hammer slot:
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a549/ssb73q/Clean3_zpspmdnszim.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/ssb73q/media/Clean3_zpspmdnszim.jpg.html)
I'm going to give my wire welder a try filling the gap of the other hammer slot. Maybe with some additional practice I will become proficient with the wire welder.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, I have an Uberti 1862 Navy that is the worst cap sucker of all time. It can't be shot more than two times in a row before a cap jams the revolver. Since that 1862 is such a PITA with cap sucking and there isn't any conversion cylinders for it, it has become a safe queen. Today I decided to try and rectify that cap sucking with the 1862 and use the 6% silver solder technique to fill in the hammer face groove. A little dremel cleaning of the hammer slot and the soldering was easy peasy. The excess solder was filed off and the revolver is ready for testing. My son-in-law is coming over Monday to do some BP shooting and I will give the 1862 a workout.
I have to admit that the 1858 Remingtons run and run without a hitch, but I'm damn determined to make my Colts as reliable without employing a cap rake.
Regards,
Stubborn Richard
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If the solder proves too soft on its own, you could try using it to sweat in a piece of steel, duck soup since the slot's already tinned.
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...
Hi, I have an Uberti 1862 Navy that is the worst cap sucker of all time. It can't be shot more than two times in a row before a cap jams the revolver. Since that 1862 is such a PITA with cap sucking and there isn't any conversion cylinders for it, it has become a safe queen ... Regards,
Stubborn Richard...
If it doesn't work out for you, let me know. I like the Pocket Police Model.
Kevin
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If the solder proves too soft on its own, you could try using it to sweat in a piece of steel, duck soup since the slot's already tinned.
Hi wicket, that's a very good idea. The most important aspect of my test is to see if cap sucking decreases, the second is the durability of the fix. If I get minimal cap sucking, but limited durability, I will try your suggestion. Thank you.
Regards,
Richard
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I'm keeping an open mind Richard, and will be interested to hear the results of your experiment. My inclination is to blame the caps though, rather than Colt's design. Since there isn't anything we shooters can do about the way modern caps are manufactured, our only options are to tweak the guns or cock the guns in ways that allow the spent cap to fall free. I wonder whether along with polishing the hammer notch, an occasional spritz of spray silicone or teflon lubricant into the notch would have any impact on cap sucking.
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Well, since filling the safety notch in the hammer isn't the way Sam designed it (since some don't want to deviate from Colts design by adding cap posts or the like, . . . ) , it would seem the best solution would be to install a steel insert in the hammer face and re-cut the notch. I posted a while back about the original notches being quite thin (about pin width).
I think the caps of today would still be strong enough to keep from being embedded in the thin slot and thus, not be pulled away from the nipple.
Doing it this way would protect the finish of the hammer ( which welding would destroy and probably the heat from soldering) and maintain what heat treatment was done to the hammer. Not to mention being correct with Colts design!
That is a good suggestion by wicket since the soldering has already happened. The procedure above would be for "un-molested" hammers.
Just a thought . . . . . . (still probably couldn't fan it though !! Lol!! Just kidding!!! Lighten up !!!!!)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, maybe fill up the slot, then drop the hammer on a cylinder safety pin and use that registration mark to drill a small hole? That may provide the smallest opening for cap sucking while retaining the basic safety feature of what Colt designed? In the 1873 the Colt design was to keep the hammer down on an empty chamber. But then Sam Colt had nothing to do with that 1873 design.
Regards,
Richard
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That's a great idea for locating the pin Richard, hopefully all the pins are placed the same. Goon's got a good point about welding. My beater pistol is a beater because, among other insane experiments, I decided to try welding out the Pieta markings on the barrel with a mig welder and flux core wire, made a real mess.
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Richard, sounds like a good plan.
More than likely Colt just used a slot or notch rather than a hole just because its less critical for location. A hole in the hammer face should work.
Wicket, I was afraid the heat would cause more problems than "fixes". Thanks for your input.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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I doubt localized intense heat on a hammer would be good for it. My main problem was with spatter and slag though, and the discovery that the metal from the weld was a different color than the metal of the barrel, which even nitre bluing couldn't correct.
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Hi, I got to test my 1862 Navy with the hammer slot filled in with 6% silver solder today. The results were very good, a cap never stuck to the hammer face. I did have whole cap remains fall between the hammer and frame, but a twist of the wrist allowed the spent cap to fall out. There were no cap sucking jams after many cylinders fired. Previously with the original hammer slot, no more than two shots could be made without a piece of cap dropping down in the internals of the action jammed the action where disassembly was required to remove the cap part. IMO filling in the hammer slot is a significant improvement. The 6% solder filling the hammer slot shows no deterioration.
I will try drilling a small hole in the hammer face to see if it still retains the benefits of filling the slot with solder and allow use of the cylinder pin safety feature.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, I have another spare Pietta 1851/1860 hammer. Got out the 6% silver solder and propane torch, but wondered if the Weller 100/140w soldering gun would provide sufficient heat to do the hammer slot soldering. It worked great, there was sufficient heat from the soldering gun to flow the 6% silver solder into the hammer groove. What's nice about using the gun instead of the torch is that concern for affecting the hammer temper is eliminated. Soldering using the gun is also easier to control than using a torch.
Regards,
Richard
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Good information here Richard. I'm following this thread with interest but haven't had anything to add. I would not have thought a 140 watt soldering gun would have done the job. I just finished soldering some threaded tubing to the back of an Indian head penny to make some conchos for a holster. I tried to use my 140 watt gun but had no luck so I used my pencil torch. I was worried about ruining the coin but they came out OK. Maybe I should have tried a little harder with the soldering gun.
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Paste flux helps a lot.
I replaced a hand spring with bobby pin steel and found it slightly loose, so I soldered it using the Weller. It wouldn't take until I brushed on the paste flux after which it set immediately.
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Hi Kirk, the 6% silver solder I used has a flux core, see:
http://www.amazon.com/Forney-38116-Silver-Fluxing-6-Percent/dp/B000PSB6KU?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, after making the previous post I remembered that last year's testing of a new Pietta 1851 Yank snub revolver where I didn't have any cap sucking, see:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=709.msg5401#msg5401
I got that Yank out of my gunsafe to examine the revolver's hammer face. The safety groove on the Yank is different than on all my other Colts that cap suck. The safety groove of the Yank looks like the safety groove entrance cut in the hammer face is melted smooth with no sharp edges like there is with the other Colts. This provides a slight taper instead of a sharp perpendicular edge.
This has me wondering if a slight stoning of the Colt hammer face safety groove edge would produce a similar surface that doesn't hold a spent cap like the sharp grooved hammers faces do?
This is something I will need to try.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, the sharp edge hammer slot theory for cap sucking has some new supporting evidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gkJaIQPZo
Regards,
Richard
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Hi Kirk, the 6% silver solder I used has a flux core, see:
http://www.amazon.com/Forney-38116-Silver-Fluxing-6-Percent/dp/B000PSB6KU?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
Regards,
Richard
Right. Mine did too.
But it works like a bat out of hell if you brush paste flux on first. Try it.
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Richard, I stoned off the edges on the hammers on the pietta and Uberti navy's and stoned smooth hammer face after my last post. It helped but the navy's were not prone to cap jamming anyway. It did not help the pocket colts at all. Neither did filling the hammer slot and trying to reprofile the hammer face on one of them. For those I'm thinking of a cap rake or a kitterige type mod when I get round to it.
Regards
Gary
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Hi Gary, thanks for your report. With the small Colts with the filled in hammer slot, did cap parts jam the revolver, or just caps fall in between the frame and hammer? After filling in my 1862 Navy Pocket hammer slot, whole fired caps did fall down in the space between hammer and frame, but twisting the wrist on pulling the hammer back allowed all caps fired to fall to the ground.
I remember old cowboy movies where those shooting while riding their horse would raise the barrel up to the sky when cocking the revolver. Maybe that practice was a left over from the days of cap and ball?
Regards,
Richard
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I remember old cowboy movies where those shooting while riding their horse would raise the barrel up to the sky when cocking the revolver. Maybe that practice was a left over from the days of cap and ball?
Regards,
Richard
Nah. Just Hollyweird drama. We used to laugh and say they were trying to "fling" the bullets for that little extra "oomph".
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Flinging is a different phenomenon from raising the revolver on the re-cock. Flinging is usually accompanied with such statements as
stinkin lousy coppers, or we know ya squeeled Franky, you dirty rat.
Raising the muzzle on cocking is usually done without lines and probably does actually have some historical basis related to C&B revolvers.
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Richard,
I filled in the hammer slot in the Wells Fargo with JB weld. No cap pieces but I got fired caps in the hammer slot which would cushion the hammer blow if I did not remember to turn the gun upside down to cock it. Sometimes they would fall out turning the gun over, sometimes not. This was like every other shot. The hammer faces on both the Wells Fargo and 1962 Pocket Police only touch the cap at the top and slant away from the nipple as at the bottom. I think this makes it easier for the caps to blow back into the hammer slot if the hammer rebounds even a little bit. Also I have put Tresos on both guns. With the wells fargo I was getting cap jams (with the treso nips and filled in slot) even with 8 grains of 4F, which is a light load. I'm going to try to come up with a Kittrige type spring plate on the 62 pocket police. In my navys I had few cap jams and none after I stoned the hammer face and rounded the bottom corners of the safety slot.
gary
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Hi, this last weekend my son-in-law brought out his Pietta 1851 revolver that I gave him for Christmas. I had a number of cylinders already preloaded for him to use. It didn't take but the 2nd or 3rd shot for him to experience cap sucking. Caps stuck to the hammer, and caps falling in between the hammer and frame were experienced. A little training on the wrist twist, or overhead hammer operation minimized the cap sucking. After shooting was completed, I asked him how he like his 1851. He said shooting the 1851 was fun, but not 100% reliable as his 1858 Remington. Then I asked him which is the most attractive revolver, the 1851 or 1858. The 1851 was his preferred best looking and fun to shoot revolver.
I offered to replace his 1851 hammer with a replacement hammer where the hammer slot is filled in. His decision was to keep the hammer slot so that the Colt safety feature remained intact. With his current skill level, I couldn't disagree.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, yesterday my son-in-law came out to visit and brought along his Pietta 1851 to shoot. I didn't have any preloaded cylinders available for him and thought it was time that he learned to field load his 1851. As expected, it went slow at first, but as he gained skill the loading became very easy for him. He fired a couple of dozen cylinders. What surprised me is that there wasn't a single sucked cap, all the cap parts fell harmlessly away from screwing up the action. Based on what we have seen before, I would have expected a number of cap jams. I examined the hammer face slot and it is typical of new Pietta Colts, sharp.
I am truly at a loss of understanding on how on one day there is a large amount of cap sucking and then on another day none at all. The mystery deepens.
Regards,
Richard
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Richard,
A cap post alleviates the "mystery" since it's there for that very reason. It's an answer when there are no cap jams. (Course, it's a head scratcher when the rare one does happen! It's not perfect, just close.). (@+
Sorry, I just had to . . . . no response requested or needed . Carry on . (7+"
(You're a good sport!!)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Regarding Hollywood gunfights on horseback. One reason for pointing the gun upwards is it keeps your center of gravity tight and makes the gun feel lighter. Pointing a gun forward at arms length while being jostled around takes more effort because your shoulder muscles must support the weight of both the gun and your arm.
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True dat, Lonesome. IMO Colt 1860s really shine when used horseback, that extra bit of grip really comes into play. I love a Sixty anywhere but they seemed almost designed for mounted shooting. Just a thought.
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Has anybody else tried breaking these sharp edges to relieve the tendency for percussion caps adhering to the Colt hammers...?
Thank you,
Bill
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Yes.
I have never used the epoxy method to fill in the safety pin hole but Ive stoned and sanded the hammer faces a little ... just a little. I did just enough of that to smooth out the teeth and sharp edges that might bight into the cap and pull it off the cone on the next cocking action. It has worked well. I dont get any more frequent cap detaching problems on the Colts than I do on Remingtons, which is not many and not often.
I use stock Pietta cones and No. 10 CCI. These particular Pietta cones range from 1997 to 2011 and all work just fine.
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This Mike Bellivue reconditioning a colt hammer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gkJaIQPZo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gkJaIQPZo)
Bill
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Had my first real experience with cap sucking with my new 1851 London Navy. First two cylinders were fine and then, the caps took two goes to fire or the caps were sucked. At home I test fired some caps, after removing most of the primer material by soaking in water. They still fired but didn't blow the caps apart. One was sucked off and stuck to the hammer. The rest tended to come off the hammer but fall clear.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p602/r5868POS/Caps_zpsygoxy2e7.png) (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/r5868POS/media/Caps_zpsygoxy2e7.png.html)
Photo shows the pattern left in the cap by the hammer.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p602/r5868POS/Hammer%20Face_zpsrzxbn6g3.png) (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/r5868POS/media/Hammer%20Face_zpsrzxbn6g3.png.html)
The surface of the hammer face.
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That hammer pic is of a hammer that has been dry fired a lot.
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Hawg, it was brand new when I got it and it has never been dry fired by me.
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Hi r5868, yes, I also have some recent purchased Uberti's that look like your hammer face. Maybe that's the Uberti way of setting hammer face to nipple distance in manufacture? Then harden the hammer after that step?
Regards,
Richard
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I don't think the hammers are hardened. I've seen too many that have nipple imprints to be so.
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Hi Hawg, after trying to drill and file a few of them, I am convinced the hammers are case hardened. The hardening however my be thin enough that it allows nipple deformation of the hammer face.
In any event, I have new Uberti revolvers with the same hammer face indentation as shown in the photo.
Regards,
Richard
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Hi Hawg, after trying to drill and file a few of them, I am convinced the hammers are case hardened. The hardening however my be thin enough that it allows nipple deformation of the hammer face.
In any event, I have new Uberti revolvers with the same hammer face indentation as shown in the photo.
Regards,
Richard
Case hardened wouldn't do that. Case hardening is a surface hardening only, it goes maybe .003 deep. Case hardening can't be filed period. I only have one Uberti and the hammer face on it is flat as can be. I find it hard to believe they left the factory like that but I'll take your word for it. if I got one like that I'd send it back.
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Hi, this last weekend my son-in-law brought out his Pietta 1851 revolver that I gave him for Christmas. I had a number of cylinders already preloaded for him to use. It didn't take but the 2nd or 3rd shot for him to experience cap sucking. Caps stuck to the hammer, and caps falling in between the hammer and frame were experienced. A little training on the wrist twist, or overhead hammer operation minimized the cap sucking. After shooting was completed, I asked him how he like his 1851. He said shooting the 1851 was fun, but not 100% reliable as his 1858 Remington. Then I asked him which is the most attractive revolver, the 1851 or 1858. The 1851 was his preferred best looking and fun to shoot revolver.
I offered to replace his 1851 hammer with a replacement hammer where the hammer slot is filled in. His decision was to keep the hammer slot so that the Colt safety feature remained intact. With his current skill level, I couldn't disagree.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, yesterday my son-in-law came out to visit and brought along his Pietta 1851 to shoot. I didn't have any preloaded cylinders available for him and thought it was time that he learned to field load his 1851. As expected, it went slow at first, but as he gained skill the loading became very easy for him. He fired a couple of dozen cylinders. What surprised me is that there wasn't a single sucked cap, all the cap parts fell harmlessly away from screwing up the action. Based on what we have seen before, I would have expected a number of cap jams. I examined the hammer face slot and it is typical of new Pietta Colts, sharp.
I am truly at a loss of understanding on how on one day there is a large amount of cap sucking and then on another day none at all. The mystery deepens.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, yesterday my son-in-law again came out to shoot his Pietta 1851 revolver. I preloaded up six extra cylinders for him and he loaded up a dozen more on his 1851. While the last time he didn't have any cap sucking, yesterday there were five times when the cap fell between the hammer and frame preventing firing a cap. Go figure, one day he has no cap sucking and on another day his 1851 cap sucks. He is rethinking my offer to install a replacement hammer that I already filled in the hammer slot with silver solder. Especially since I offered advice on only loading five and keeping the hammer on an empty chamber. I never expect a new BP shooter to take in all BP prudent shooting technique in a couple of outings.
One thing I did enjoy seeing was the ease of him taking down his 1851 for cleaning. He could have done it blindfolded.
A proud dad,
Richard
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Hi, this last weekend my son-in-law brought out his Pietta 1851 revolver that I gave him for Christmas. I had a number of cylinders already preloaded for him to use. It didn't take but the 2nd or 3rd shot for him to experience cap sucking. Caps stuck to the hammer, and caps falling in between the hammer and frame were experienced. A little training on the wrist twist, or overhead hammer operation minimized the cap sucking. After shooting was completed, I asked him how he like his 1851. He said shooting the 1851 was fun, but not 100% reliable as his 1858 Remington. Then I asked him which is the most attractive revolver, the 1851 or 1858. The 1851 was his preferred best looking and fun to shoot revolver.
I offered to replace his 1851 hammer with a replacement hammer where the hammer slot is filled in. His decision was to keep the hammer slot so that the Colt safety feature remained intact. With his current skill level, I couldn't disagree.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, yesterday my son-in-law came out to visit and brought along his Pietta 1851 to shoot. I didn't have any preloaded cylinders available for him and thought it was time that he learned to field load his 1851. As expected, it went slow at first, but as he gained skill the loading became very easy for him. He fired a couple of dozen cylinders. What surprised me is that there wasn't a single sucked cap, all the cap parts fell harmlessly away from screwing up the action. Based on what we have seen before, I would have expected a number of cap jams. I examined the hammer face slot and it is typical of new Pietta Colts, sharp.
I am truly at a loss of understanding on how on one day there is a large amount of cap sucking and then on another day none at all. The mystery deepens.
Regards,
Richard
Hi, yesterday my son-in-law again came out to shoot his Pietta 1851 revolver. I preloaded up six extra cylinders for him and he loaded up a dozen more on his 1851. While the last time he didn't have any cap sucking, yesterday there were five times when the cap fell between the hammer and frame preventing firing a cap. Go figure, one day he has no cap sucking and on another day his 1851 cap sucks. He is rethinking my offer to install a replacement hammer that I already filled in the hammer slot with silver solder. Especially since I offered advice on only loading five and keeping the hammer on an empty chamber. I never expect a new BP shooter to take in all BP prudent shooting technique in a couple of outings.
One thing I did enjoy seeing was the ease of him taking down his 1851 for cleaning. He could have done it blindfolded.
A proud dad,
Richard
Richard, as much as you shoot (and as much as your Colts are cap-eaters!) I really think you should try out a cap rake. As talented and handy as you are, it should be a piece of cake for you. I will post some close-ups later on of the two Goon has installed on my guns...
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Hi Kirk, with the Colt style revolvers that have cap sucking, I rather choose to use the filled in hammer gap method. Cap sucking is inversely proportional to the size of the Colt revolver. The main reason I would never use a cap rake is that Colt didn't use it and I use conversion cylinders and concerned that the hammer slot may need to be widened to clear the pin and there would be less hammer metal spreading the load on the conversion cylinder firing pin. Returning a filled in hammer slot to a stock hammer is easy where no modification to the frame was ever made. You may consider my logic irrational, but it serves me well.
Regards,
Richard
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That's the way I am, if Colt didn't use it I don't want it.
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That's the way I am, if Colt didn't use it I don't want it.
Colt didn't use Pyrodex.
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That's the way I am, if Colt didn't use it I don't want it.
Colt didn't use Pyrodex.
True but sometimes it's all I can get and it's closer to real black than the other subs. I also use Swiss.
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Hi Kirk, truth be told, I don't have any issue with people modifying their firearms anyway they choose. Cap rake is a proven solution to minimize cap sucking. If I needed a C&B for personal protection, I would have a complete tuneup job done by Goon that included the cap rake on that carry gun. However, since most of my BP shooting is simply for recreation all the Pietta's right out of the box get the job done. The Uberti Colts however do require some work to be at a performance level of the Pietta's. Some of the Colts like the smaller framed revolvers are terrible cap suckers. There are a few workarounds to minimize cap sucking, cap rake, filled in hammer slot, and twist wrist on cocking helpful. There is something inherent in the Colt design using modern manufacture caps that allows for cap sucking. There are other BP revolver designs like the Remington where getting a cap jam is a rarity. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds using my Remington and Uberti 1858s and never had a cap jam.
A love affair sometimes comes with warts. Cap sucking with the small Colts is just part of the hobby.
As I posted before, I will never do a BP revolver mod that can't be 100% returned to stock. Last weekend I installed a replacement hammer silver solder filled in the hammer slot in my son-in-law's 1851. The reason I'm not concerned about losing the Colt safety pin feature is that I never, never, never ever use a safety on any gun when shooting at my range. There are only three safety rules necessary; Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use it, and Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Of course for carry and hunting, safeties make for good practice.
Regards,
Richard
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Richard, I have no issues with your line of thinking, but consider the following;
a) the cap rake as installed by The Goon is very thin; almost indistinguishable and fits in the slot already in the hammer (see pic below)
b) it is thin enough that were you to want to sell the gun or return it to normal, all that would be needed is to nip it off and file the nub down flush and it would be gone
c) Colts DO eat caps...it's a fact. And I've had to cease shooting with a particular revolver more than once (until I could get it home for an in-depth teardown and cleaning). I can honestly say that never happened with any of my Remmies or my R&S (yet) with the many thousands of rounds I've fired. When I go to the range I bring more than one BP gun so it's not an issue, but if I was a 'one gun Charlie' (like Johnnie was) I could see where a cap frag could spoil your day and make you curse Sam Colt. I realize the cap rake isn't for everyone, to tell you the truth I wasn't sure how I was gonna like it until I actually saw it. But I'm good with it now.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8509/29195947804_cef9d342ea_z.jpg)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8508/29195941894_dbf89ece44_z.jpg)
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I can honestly say I've never had one fall in the works bad enough to totally lock it up and require tear down to clear it. I do usually raise the muzzle some and tilt it to the right when cocking tho. I get the occasional cap stuck in the slot but that doesn't happen often. I don't get out and about much anymore to need to actually carry one holstered but when I do I use the pins. If I ever do get one that locks it up I'll just go over to the carport and get a screwdriver out of the toolbox.
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I can honestly say I've never had one fall in the works bad enough to totally lock it up and require tear down to clear it. I do usually raise the muzzle some and tilt it to the right when cocking tho. I get the occasional cap stuck in the slot but that doesn't happen often. I don't get out and about much anymore to need to actually carry one holstered but when I do I use the pins. If I ever do get one that locks it up I'll just go over to the carport and get a screwdriver out of the toolbox.
My issue is that while our BP range does have nice big sturdy tables, they are out in the middle of God's Country with pine needles underneath...if a gust of wind sends your bits a-rollin'...they are gone forever. So I don't like to do any teardowns in the field. If a cap-eater locks up on me I grab another and retire it for the day.
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That's what I like about living in the boonies. I don't even know where a range is, never been to one other than a CAS range that was set up like a town. Anytime I want to shoot I just go outside and have just opened the door and let loose.
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*sigh* Sweet....
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*sigh* Sweet....
I could rub it in but I won't (7+" (7& (7& (7&
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Hi, I would like to see a study on how the cap rake compares in performance to the filled in hammer slot. Just considering the process, I would bet that the filled in hammer is a better solution to cap sucking. The cap rake still allows the cap to be pulled back a slight distance off the cone where it can then fall into the action. The cap then needs a partial trip around the recoil shield to clear since the post blocks cap removal from the frame hammer opening. The filled in hammer leaves most of the spent cap still on the cone and preserves the frame hammer opening.
Just a little cap sucking conjecture.
Regards,
Richard
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Out of 200+ revolvers I've never been asked to "fill in" a hammer notch. Likewise, all the CASS shooters that I service want to "make sure" the cap post is part of the service! I've had two folks ask to not install a post, one I can't remember why but the other one was on a 2nd gen Colt that wouldn't be shot (so, no need) but he just wanted it to be set up to function the best that it could.
I just got off the phone with Kaido (yes, the bullet guy) and asked him how he likes the posts I put on his and he said he absolutely loves um!! He said he takes the pair on bear hunts and likes having six shots instead of just five.
For what it's worth, I'll be installing my frame mounted "pushrod and coil spring" (a la Ruger and Caps. Dragoon) to his and the others I have here of his.
So, as "unscientific" as it may or may not be , it appears almost all shooters desire the cap post over any other method.
Btw, The cap post is a reversible procedure as is the arbor threaded for the adjustable wedge bearing (just plug them). And of course, you could just grind the arbor to be short again and end up with the gun you started with! (A wreck !!) Don't know why anyone would want to . . . . Heck, you could put all new factory parts in it and have it possibly (probably) eat itself!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, does the hammer slot need to be modified in any way to use a cap rake?
Regards,
Richard
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No, I fit the post to the existing notch. Of course material directly behind the notch needs to be clearanced to allow the hammer to reach its full forward movement. Its basically extending the rearward depth of the existing notch.
They are rarely centered so i mark each one, drill and tap the frame and slim the sides of the post after its mounted. That leaves the full thickness of the post front to back for maximum strength.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, thanks for the information, and a very happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Regards,
Richard
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Thanks Richard, you too! (We're just now in between "feedings"!!)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi, another opinion on capsucking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUgZ5LYnscM
Regards,
Richard
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20-30,000 psi? (That's getting into Ruger only territory)
The cap is supposed to be a gas seal?
Recommends filing a notch on the bottom of the cone? (Guess the "gas seal" isn't all that important!)
A notch in the hammer face removes less material for striking a cap and doesn't have to be as precise as a round hole.to locate on a pin. (The original notches were not as wide as our Italian copies)
The main springs were heavy to trap cap frags/ protect shooter/ ensure ignition (my opinion)
The installation of a cap post ALLOWS the reduction of mainspring power because it arrests any blowback rather than the hammer having the sole responsibility. Racking a hammer back with good authority will "throw" (as it's dislodged) any caps/frags away from possibly falling into the action.
A common misconception is that a weaker mainspring is the reason for unreliable ignition. It has just as much (if not more) to do with the action parts than the strength of the spring. Sure, a sledge hammer will pop a cap every time but it's not conducive for competition, ease of handling, long life of parts, fanning , etc. The simple installation of a cap post ALLOWS a hard to handle, heavy actioned cap gun to be as reliable and easy shooting as a fine tuned cartridge shooter. A "Race gun' if you will.
Yap, the video depicts that guys idea of why, what and how . . . . I like mine better! (At least I know to use half cock when removing/installing a cylinder!)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi Mike, I agree the guy isn't too strong on science. He also suggested that the old time caps were thinner than today's? His removal of the cylinder with the hammer down had me cringe. I know he knows better.
It was just another very experienced BP person's opinion to consider.
It's clear to me that there isn't any perfect solution to capsucking, other than use conversion cylinders, but there are some methods to minimize the issue of capsucking.
All opinions are welcome.
Regards,
Richard
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All I know is the cap post Mike put on my 1865 works perfectly and I think it was one of the early ones he did as I sent him some pics of what I wanted. I am willing to bet he has gotten better at it
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Hi Mike, I agree the guy isn't too strong on science. He also suggested that the old time caps were thinner than today's?
Original caps were thicker and made from copper.
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Hawg's right...
"The copper for making the caps is obtained in sheets 4 feet long and 14 inches wide weighing three pounds: a variation of four ounces more or less is allowed. The copper should be pure, free from seams, holes or blisters, well annealed, and as evenly rolled as possible with straight and smooth edges."
From: A Practical Treatise On The Fabrication Of Matches, Gun Cotton, Colored Fires And Fulminating Powders by H. Dussance. Philadelphia, 1864
If you do the math, it works out to a cap around 8 mils or so thick, and using pure annealed copper, the cap doesn't work harden when formed as much as a modern cap.
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Thanks Hawg and wicket.
That makes sense and coupled with a narrow slot in the hammer face, the so called "cap sucking" is more than likely a "modern problem" and was not such a common occurrence when these were contemporary weapons.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Thanks Hawg and wicket.
That makes sense and coupled with a narrow slot in the hammer face, the so called "cap sucking" is more than likely a "modern problem" and was not such a common occurrence when these were contemporary weapons.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
Common enough that someone patented a fix for it in 1864
https://www.google.com/patents/US41848#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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Hi jaxenro, thanks for that info. Seems that Colt capsucking was an issue from the beginning of Colt use.
Regards,
Richard
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Wonder if it was ever put into production? I've never seen one with anything like that. Even if it did happen I doubt it was anything like what people report with todays caps. I can't remember having an actual cap jam to the point of locking a gun up and rarely get one stuck to the hammer, tho it does happen from time to time it's hardly anything to complain about. I get a lot more frustrated with my dragoon lever falling every other round.
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Hi Hawg, need is the mother of invention. If there is no need, there is no need or reason to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
IMO it's time to change your closely held belief on capsucking.
Regards,
Richard
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Manhattan Firearms put it in some of theirs but the market for percussion revolvers was drying up by that time. The war was over surplus (and "taken home") firearms were on the market and everyone wanted cartridge guns
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Hi Hawg, need is the mother of invention. If there is no need, there is no need or reason to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
IMO it's time to change your closely held belief on capsucking.
Regards,
Richard
Maybe but personal experience says it's not the problem now it's made out to be and I had some of those original copper caps so I kinda doubt it was a real problem back then either.
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I think if folks would cycle the action faster than many do, caps would be thrown clear of the action. I've seen a lot of shooters cock the hammer slowly and that is what invites the opportunity for caps/frags to fall into the action (they aren't cartridge guns!). Of course, a late dropping bolt isn't conducive to fast or quick cycling as it will induce throw-by. So, a correctly fitted (timed close to spec.) open top should be able to function without the problem of cap sucking".
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi, a new (old) solution to cap sucking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr5Efa8L5DA
This video includes some weird theory, but another approach.
Regards,
Richard
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Interesting. Especially the foresight of Sam to anticipate ejecting the spent caps. I never looked at the channels on the recoil shield for that purpose before. Thanks, Richard!
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Hmmmm . . . don't know where he gets the info that it was Sam's "intent" but . . . . whatever.
At the end of the vid, he admits that it is not fool proof and of course, the cap post isnt 100% fool proof either (unless you're running full speed anyway . . .). The best thing going for the cap post, in my opinion, is the ability to relax the hammer spring tension to a much more manageable force. The fact that it is a "cap sucking" fix is almost secondary. Having a device to block the force from acting on the hammer with a lightened spring makes for a much more "user friendly" revolver than a revolver needing a heavy spring to keep the spent cap on a cone.
I believe competition is where innovation is the "mother" needed to overcome obstacles that impair the function of a mechanical device that was an unforeseen problem before. The components we have available today are what we have today and I've never seen or heard of a ported cone before (from Colt's or anywhere else). How would a cap, in Colts day, know to split at the bottom? I don't believe the cones of the day had a port for gas relief. This is how crap gets started and perpetuated . . . . I'm not arguing that what this guy is saying may not be somewhat of a fix, but I'm am saying it's just "another" fix for a MODERN problem. I'll stick with a cap post for the above main reason and the "cap sucking" fix.
That's my thoughts anyway . . .
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Hi, I believe that the direction of the score on the nipple is the secret sauce. Slix-Shot nipples align the perpendicular hole randomly.
Pietta or Uberti nipples are pretty hard, filing is tough. Maybe if the nipple is first scored, then removed in order, and then hit with a dremel cutoff would make short work of it. Then put the nipples back in the order removed.
May be worth a try?
Regards,
Richard
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Caps in the day weren't made from foil like he claimed, they were foil lined.
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One issue I can think of...unless you are like Johnnie and never remove your nipples for cleaning and judicious anti-seize application, (jh they will never wind up in the same location, hence the score lines will be incorrectly clocked.
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My Colts dont suck nuthin and not the Rems nor the Griswold neether. CCI 10s and stock Pietta cones a veritable lark.
[I know, lucky me - but that's how it is.]
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Hi G Dog, how often do you shoot? My display Colts never suck a cap, my shooters do. The smaller the Colt frame the more they suck caps. I have never had a cap jam with my Remington 1858s.
Regards,
Richard
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My Colts dont suck nuthin and not the Rems nor the Griswold neether. CCI 10s and stock Pietta cones a veritable lark.
[I know, lucky me - but that's how it is.]
I don't get many, they're few and far between. I get just as many with Remingtons. When I do get one a Remington is a lot harder to clear.
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Hi G Dog, how often do you shoot? My display Colts never suck a cap, my shooters do.
Regards,
Richard
Since safe queens and wall hangers are problem free, its certainly a fair question. I probably shoot 70 to 100 rounds a month of C&B and more if my boys are in town.
I put caps on slowly and carefully with a T/C straight line and go around again with a dowel or flat stick and get them pressed on good; not hard, just firmly. With Remingtons I remember we got a 15 degree tilt so I try to keep things plumb with the cone and angled right (Colts are a shitload easier to cap in real low light, the cones being coaxial with the rest of the gun).
In forty+ years of this type of fun I have never had one get into the action (sucked). Occasionally one will fall off the cone but travel along the cap slot and fall out clear of the gun. Sometimes, but rarely, a cap will fall into the area between the hammer and the frame but will fall out on a tilt of the gun. That leaves those boys that wont fall out or shake loose. For that I carry a surgical suture very thin nosed angled tool that will grab on to that cap and pull it right out. I had to use it about two years ago and it pulled out that cap like a loose tooth, no problem (that was a Pietta Rem 5.5 made in 2011).
I have polished all the hammer faces so there is just nothing there to grab or snag onto. When cocking for the next shot I let my thumb think about how smooth and well the hammer will clear contact with the spent cap
and it does. That part is just vibes and karma, Cali style. Think redneck Zen.
.
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Hi G Dog, I view a fired cap that falls between the hammer and frame where the next hammer drop fails to fire the chambers to be cap sucking. We shouldn't need to look in between the hammer and frame each shot if a gun is reliable and doesn't cap suck. True, the number of time where I needed to disassemble the revolver to remove a cap is rare, but many times after shooting when cleaning the gun I find a cap part in the action.
To be content shooting C&B Colts, I have trained myself to consider cap sucking to be some of the Colt shooting charm.
Regards,
Richard
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Even though this topic is fodder for discussion, there is pretty much a tried and true method for keeping spent caps and or "frags" out of the action, and its just shy of 100% !! As with most advances in mechanical devices, competition is the "accelerator " for the "mother of invention"!! Cowboy action shooting has pretty much been the arena where devices are proven worthy or not and the cap post is the agreed upon winner! I tend to agree.
I understand not everybody wants one but, with our current lines of weapons and the caps available, its the best fix for "the" problem. Some are happy with just de-burring and polishing but that does little for the bits and pieces or the loose cap from finding its way into the "nether regions". The post is a physical barrier to actually block these things from doing just that. That fact also allows for a 4 lb or less hammer draw without fear of hammer blowback.
The biggest problem folks will have using the cap post is revolver function. Since the revolvers typically show up with extremely late timing, proper use of the post isn't easy. For it to be most effective, one should cycle the action with "authority" and the factory offerings aren't up for it. In the competition arena, fast cycling is the norm and thus, the revolvers are capable of taking full advantage of the post.
That , in a "nutshell" is how and why the cap post works and why some still have a problem even if they have one.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
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45 Dragoon,
Slow cycling causes problems with a cap post? You mentioned this is tied to late timing but I can't visualize what's going on here. ??? Care to elaborate?
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Hey Brad, sure -
The cap post is located quite close to the rear of the cylinder and is a physical barrier to deflect the cap/frags. If a cap is "blown" into the safety slot in the hammer face, it will be removed from the slot as the hammer is drawn back for the next shot. Since the cap/frag is removed (from the hammer) so close to the rear of the cylinder, a portion of it will come in contact with the spinning cylinder which will tend to kick it up and to the right. That is what keeps it from entering the hammer slot and possibly falling into the action.
That's how it is supposed to work but, like most things, there are "techniques" that can enhance the ability or use of a device. The cap post is no different. The best technique is to cycle the hammer with "authority" which will dislodge the cap/frag very close to a fast moving cylinder which in turn will send the cap/frag FLYING away as if it were a spent case from a semi-auto. Cycling the hammer with a slow pace may allow the cap/frag to stay in the safety slot, only to fall out somewhere near or at the end of the cycle, and tumbling down into the action.
That is where the "late timing" comes into play. If your revolver isn't capable of being cycled fast, with authority, then your cap post won't be as effective and you will have a nasty looking revolver in a short time ( because of throw-by and a scared up cyl. The cap post works best when it is part of a complete service rather than a stand alone item . . . . . which is exactly why, unlike most other tuners or Smith's (I'm a tuner), I don't offer a "menu" of items to choose from. It's part of a service that will allow you to treat your revolver like the proverbial "rented Mule" and since it's set up that way, it performs best being treated that way. Watch how the CAS shooters shoot their revolvers. And, they (generally) don't have action stops and bolt blocks (which is why they'll last only so long).
So, just like auto racing brings enhancements to the rest of the auto world, competition brought this particular enhancement to the general black powder revolver shooting crowd . . . . . but only if your revolver will allow you to execute the proper technique.
That's pretty much it . . . . . in a big ol nutshell!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Thanks Mike. So the gun needs to be cocked "smartly" to optimize a cap post, and the way late timing negatively effect this is because it won't allow rapid cocking due to the cylinder notches overshooting indexing with the bolt.
Also, where do you locate the cap post in the front to back axis, about even with the face of the recoil shield?
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Thanks Mike. So the gun needs to be cocked "smartly" to optimize a cap post, and the way late timing negatively effect this is because it won't allow rapid cocking due to the cylinder notches overshooting indexing with the bolt.
Also, where do you locate the cap post in the front to back axis, about even with the face of the recoil shield?
Brad, here is my "Goonerized" Army with the cap rake (post) Mike installed. Yeah, it works.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8508/29195941894_dbf89ece44_z.jpg)
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Awesome!! Thanks Cap.!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Ditto, thanks Captain.
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Hey, I just introduced the Goons "action shield" which is a solid barrier that physically keeps spent caps/frags out of the action. Don't know if it's the first time anything like this has been done but it works perfectly!! It can be installed on any SA to protect the action from any foreign objects, cap gun or cartridge gun.
Just an FYI. :)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Sounds very interesting Mike. Any pictures available?
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Hey, I just introduced the Goons "action shield" which is a solid barrier that physically keeps spent caps/frags out of the action. Don't know if it's the first time anything like this has been done but it works perfectly!! It can be installed on any SA to protect the action from any foreign objects, cap gun or cartridge gun.
Just an FYI. :)
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
Well, you gotta show it to us Mike. Do you have pics up on your website?
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Ok, here ya go.
You can drop any type of cap fragment, whole hull, whatever. . . and pull the trigger. You may (probably will) get a failure to fire but you wont get anything down in the action. Cocking the hammer again, the shield will present the " foreign material" to be discarded. A nice mod that works perfectly and is a great compliment for the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
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We'll get those cap guns 100% reliable one of these centuries! (@+ So what have you got there Mike, some brass sheet attached to the hammer. ???
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More importantly, the installation of preventative mechanisms is exactly that. Regardless of the history of a particular open top revolver, prevention is the goal. All open top revolvers and even Colt pattern S.A.s have an open path into the action when the hammer is at half or full cock. The possibility of a cap or fragments of caps finding its/their way into the action is always present. For competition guns, half way through a stage is a bad time for your "favorite" O.T. to have its first cap jam. This shield works exactly as intended plus, it gives the grease in the action some protection from fouling.
I've never had a wreck in my car but that doesn't keep me from wearing my seat belt . . . . . .
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks (you would have already seen this!! Lol!)
PS. Their isn't any argument regarding cap posts (rakes)working or not. The competition shooters settled that a long time ago.
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That shield is a simple and effective idea that I would have never thought of. It's a feature that Sam Colt should have designed into the hammer.
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I never fired it before the work. It was unshootable due to other issues.
However, its twin would (and will) suck a cap maybe once every 10-12 shots...very annoying, to say the least. I shot the cap rake gun maybe 50-75 rounds without a single issue.
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Hi Brad, I never had a Colt cap suck where the edges of the safety notch were broken and smoothed. I also shoot most of my BP revolvers with conversion cylinders were a slightly wider safety slot would be a serious issue.
Other than competition, cap sucking isn't a serious issue. An occasional cap suck just returns me to yesteryear, not a bad thing at all.
BTW, I never ever had a cap jamming issue using the Remington 1858 shooting thousands of BP rounds, If I was doing competition I would use an 1858. Those doing competition with ears should hear.
Regards,
Richard
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Hello Richard,
I'll have to admit that I've done very little shooting with my Colt replicas but it would seem as though breaking those sharp edges on the hammer slot would be the very first thing to do before firing the gun. If I have any issues after that and changing nipples won't solve the problem, it looks like the rake would be the next step.
As far as cartridge conversions go, having a separate hammer to go with the conversion would seem feasible to me. I have a Uberti 1860 with the 5 shot Kirst conversion that required a lot of adjustment to the lock work. I've planned on getting another set of internals for it when I want to convert it back to a 6 shot percussion gun. I always pull the gun all apart anyway for cleaning after shooting black powder or a substitute, so changing out the parts wouldn't bother me.
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Ok, here ya go.
You can drop any type of cap fragment, whole hull, whatever. . . and pull the trigger. You may (probably will) get a failure to fire but you wont get anything down in the action. Cocking the hammer again, the shield will present the " foreign material" to be discarded. A nice mod that works perfectly and is a great compliment for the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
Tell us about the small radial holes in the nipples, please
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Those are SliXshot nipples Len. https://www.badmanbullets.com/OnlineStore/proddetail.php?prod=SliXshot-Black-Powder-Nipples
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1st, Thanks Cap.!! That's a good report (and familiar!! )lI )
2nd, Breaking the edges on the hammer face and slot is a good start but it does absolutely nothing to keep an errant spent cap from falling into the action. It's virtually a perfect slide right into the action! Of course, some folks never have this happen and I guess it is presumed that it never happens. (Of course, this post is in a dedicated thread about this particular subject which is why I posted it here . . . . strange , I know . . . . ) . So, a physical barrier (such as a cap post (rake) seems to be a reliable device to keep the "breakaway" cap from sliding down to the action.
- as a side note here, the cap post is fitted to the notch in the hammer face so, there's no need or reason to "slightly widen" the slot. No sense in starting any rumors . . . .
Now, there is another barrier (Goons Action Shield) which will prevent the "one that got away" (from the cap post (rake)) from entering the action and will be held until discarded.
3rd, I would say more than most would rather NOT have a cap issue while shooting and more than that would rather their "pride and joy" open top be as reliable a shooter as a cartridge revolver. That can be achieved . . . . . ( L@. )
4th, Many competition shooters would love to shoot Remies but the biggest drawback is the rather stiff action, heavy main spring and flat handspring (guess that's really 3 drawbacks!) they inherently have. Many folks don't know what and or how to set them up and apparently, not many tuners/smith's do as well.
I spent the better part of 2 years trying to figure a way to replace the flat action springs in the Remington but space is so tight in them I pretty much "threw in the towel"!! A couple of weeks later, it dawned on me how to replace the hand spring!! That was the key!! The trigger and bolt were easier and it allowed me to completely coil spring the action of the Remie!! As such, now the Remington can have the life span of a Ruger and even more durability than its bigger/heavier Ruger brother!! The first pair done this way have been in the competition world for a couple of months and in some pretty big matches. So far, I understand they are working " flawlessly " (their adjective, not mine!!)
The best thing about this is, the '58, the '75 and '90 Remies are all the same as far as the springs go so, they can all be fixed!! So, they may start showing up in the "winners circle" some day soon!!
Len, Mike beat me to it!! Lol!! Thanks Mike!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Ok, here ya go.
You can drop any type of cap fragment, whole hull, whatever. . . and pull the trigger. You may (probably will) get a failure to fire but you wont get anything down in the action. Cocking the hammer again, the shield will present the " foreign material" to be discarded. A nice mod that works perfectly and is a great compliment for the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
Tell us about the small radial holes in the nipples, please
Ok, so they are Slixes, but what is the technical, scientifical purpose of those radial holes? The cap ignition produces a pressure and the flame goes down into the bp-load. Why letting some of that pressure go sideways? To loosen the cap? To get it down into the mechanism? There surely must be some ingenious purpose. Did they have those holes back in the days?
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Ok, here ya go.
You can drop any type of cap fragment, whole hull, whatever. . . and pull the trigger. You may (probably will) get a failure to fire but you wont get anything down in the action. Cocking the hammer again, the shield will present the " foreign material" to be discarded. A nice mod that works perfectly and is a great compliment for the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
Tell us about the small radial holes in the nipples, please
Ok, so they are Slixes, but what is the technical, scientifical purpose of those radial holes? The cap ignition produces a pressure and the flame goes down into the bp-load. Why letting some of that pressure go sideways? To loosen the cap? To get it down into the mechanism? There surely must be some ingenious purpose. Did they have those holes back in the days?
I believe it's to relieve some pressure upon firing so the hammer won't be blown back and hence drag the cap off the nipple, or allow the cap to be blown back off the nipple. Other brand nipples use a small orifice to accomplish the same thing. I've also heard it said that splitting the cap is a good thing and that the groove in the hammer of Colts is designed to do this, aside from working as a safety that locks the cylinder between firing positions.
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Hey Len,
You may be a little confused- I don't make or sell Slix shot nips. The reason for the vents you're talking about is to "supposedly" keep the charge from blowing the cap off the nipple. Some say they work, some say no difference found . . . The problem with the cap coming off the nipple is that they tend to go to other places ie into the lock work. So, the vents combined with a heavy main should keep the spent cap in place.
Many customers of mine have more or less arthritic thumbs (competitors or not) and like a much lighter mainspring. A 4 pound hammer draw is light enough for most and slightly lighter allows one to EASILY handle a cap gun (Colt or Remi pattern) with ease! The heavy factory installed mainspring isn't conducive to quick follow-up shots, slip-thumbing the hammer, fast draw, even fanning . . . ( your technique is yours, not mine) My job is to give you a tool capable of whatever you want, as reliable and trouble free as possible.
This being the case, a cap post and now an Action Shield will allow you to have an open top revolver or Remington that will be even more reliable and function as close to a finely tuned cartridge revolver as you can possibly get (as far as I'm concerned!! Lol!!)!!!
Before folks start in on "I'm fine with my factory springs . . . ", that's all well and good but, heavy springs mask feeling for other things, they batter the frame and or nipples, cause early (sometimes extremely early) action parts failure , and make it impossible to near impossible for some to enjoy shooting cap guns. Folks that never experience a truly fine tuned revolver (of any kind) will never understand what is possible and what an amazing weapon they could have with a little " tweaking" !!
So, my announcement here about the Action Shield was just to notify you folks that this is something that works (every bit as well as hoped) very well, easy to install and will at least keep "stuff" out of your action!
I'll post some more pics to better explain the install soon . . .
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Ok, so they are Slixes, but what is the technical, scientifical purpose of those radial holes? The cap ignition produces a pressure and the flame goes down into the bp-load. Why letting some of that pressure go sideways? To loosen the cap? To get it down into the mechanism? There surely must be some ingenious purpose. Did they have those holes back in the days?
Here's a link to the manufacturer's explanation of the vent holes on SlixShot nipples. https://www.badmanbullets.com/cowboygunparts.com/cap-&-ball-nipples.html
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Ok, here ya go.
You can drop any type of cap fragment, whole hull, whatever. . . and pull the trigger. You may (probably will) get a failure to fire but you wont get anything down in the action. Cocking the hammer again, the shield will present the " foreign material" to be discarded. A nice mod that works perfectly and is a great compliment for the cap post.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
Tell us about the small radial holes in the nipples, please
Ok, so they are Slixes, but what is the technical, scientifical purpose of those radial holes? The cap ignition produces a pressure and the flame goes down into the bp-load. Why letting some of that pressure go sideways? To loosen the cap? To get it down into the mechanism? There surely must be some ingenious purpose. Did they have those holes back in the days?
I believe it's to relieve some pressure upon firing so the hammer won't be blown back and hence drag the cap off the nipple, or allow the cap to be blown back off the nipple. Other brand nipples use a small orifice to accomplish the same thing. I've also heard it said that splitting the cap is a good thing and that the groove in the hammer of Colts is designed to do this, aside from working as a safety that locks the cylinder between firing positions.
I've also heard it said that there is a certain dance,like a Scottish reel, that if properly performed, will prevent stuff from interfering with the action. Prolly just hearsay.
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Well, the dance would be the cheapest avenue so practice your steps and have at it! (7&
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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The dance doesn't work unless you sprinkle chicken blood around your shooting bench.
Say...you don't suppose the Dance Brothers...ahh, nevermind.
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Lol!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
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I've done some pretty good dances and chants when I got a hot spent cap down my shirt sleeve.
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I've done some pretty good dances and chants when I got a hot spent cap down my shirt sleeve.
(7+"
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Hi, a new cap sucking video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoDPL_sPKcc
Regards,
Richard
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Piettas are ugly. Well, Mr. Frazer, Ill contest that. Motion to dismiss without leave to amend or refile. Another point of critique is that employing knives or screwdrivers to remove caps is much less safe than using a nonferrous tool like a little edged piece of wood. Ol Duke tends to miss more than he hits and then blames the gun. His vids are still fun though and he seems like a good guy. He got his hat cleaned too - bout time. ::)
Good post, Richard. Thanks.
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Hi G Dog, I always get a kick on how he manages from a rest to get 3" groups at 7yds, but the group at 15yds is 15". (jh
Bottom line is he can't shoot worth a s**t. He still hasn't learned that most BP revolvers shoot high.
Even still, he has the balls to do videos to share with others that are mostly interesting, and I have to give him a lot of respect for doing so.
Regards,
Richard
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Thanks for posting that video Richard,
That is exactly what the Action Shield prevents!! I had a customer call me yesterday (he was the recipient of the first competition revolvers to have the A.S. installed ) and he said after about 90 rounds through them he had a cap frag get past the cap post on one of them and the Shield kept it from entering the action !! He wanted to let me know it worked perfectly "as advertised" lol!! Happy shooter!!
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
Oh, he's sending 3 more this week!! GOOD CUSTOMER!! Lol !!
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This is not a reply, it's a question.
When did the Colt became really popular? Was it during the cap days, or was it after the conversions appeared?
It seems to me, that all the Wild West notorious guys (and the Hollyweirds) were into conversions and that they never experienced a cap suck when in a tight situation.
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I think Colt's have always been more popular but the 1849 was definitely the apex.
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Len,
Colt revolvers or "Colt's" as they called them back then first became really popular in the 1850s. There are many references to Colt's revolvers from the late 1860s and early 1870s, heyday of the "gunmen." Outlaw John Wesley Hardin used many Colt cap and ball revolvers in his career and was found carrying one when he was arrested in 1877. Of course Wild Bill Hickok was well known for his 1851 Colt's Navy's. I think conversion Colt's are more popular in movies because of their ease of loading for films than they were back in the day among gunfighters, although some historians believe Doc Holiday was carrying a Colt Navy conversion at the OK Corral gunfight in 1881.
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Hi, one of the first Colts was the Colt Paterson introduced in 1836.
Regards,
Richard
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Another thing caps were thicker back then and made from copper. I doubt they had as many cap jams.
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Nice snow fall, 30*F, no wind. Shot my original Colt Navy. After a couple of rounds I realized that the hand wasn't stopping the cylinder from going CCW. Thought the hand spring had sprung (i.e. become a former spring, an ex-spring, a no-more-spring). Had one unfired chamber and unscrewed that nipple and pushed the ball out.
So, time for the annual strip and clean. And there, behold, was an obviously rather old fragment of cap deep down in the innards. It had probably been around for some time, doing the tourist tours of the interior.
Hand spring was OK, but had somehow been obstructed by that fragment.
When all was cleaned and greased, the gun was good to go again.
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Caps back in the day were thicker and made of copper. Cap jams did happen but not nearly as much as with the thin brass ones of today. Even so I can't remember ever having a cap get inside of a Colt to the point of locking it up.
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Hi, a video on minimizes cap sucking of Uberti 1849:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE4Ihdxq9wc&t=192s
Interesting that he doubles the force of the hammer spring. I reduce the spring force and solder fill the hammer safety notch to minimize cap sucking with the 1849.
Regards,
Richard
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Hubbs is a good instructor and presenter. I noticed in the comment section to that vid that Blackie Thomas said the two-spring fix was his idea.
I have never owned a Colt Pocket but the word seems to be that they are the worst offenders for cap jams. Is that true? Shot a 49 on occasion and never had a problem, at least no worse than any other Colt repro. Rem pockets are much better for avoiding cap fall-off and jams. A family member has one so I get to use it sometimes.
I have a set of Brownells just like that. Man, I love those bits and driver.
Ive not filled the Colt safety notch but instead smoothed the edges well and that worked good for the Pietta Colts (.44 & .36). No. 10s in CCI or Remington on a Pietta cone stay put pretty well for me.
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Hi, a pretty good discussion on cap jams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbDnicII9o
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, a pretty good discussion on cap jams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbDnicII9o
Regards,
Richard
The Duke gets it pretty much right in this video. He mentioned that original caps were made of a thicker metal and I'd also imagine they were made out of more malleable copper versus the brass that new caps are manufactured from. This would probably result in less splits and fragments.
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Hi, a pretty good discussion on cap jams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbDnicII9o
Regards,
Richard
The Duke gets it pretty much right in this video. He mentioned that original caps were made of a thicker metal and I'd also imagine they were made out of more malleable copper versus the brass that new caps are manufactured from. This would probably result in less splits and fragments.
They were thicker and made of copper. I had some back in the late 70's or early 80's but somewhere along the way they got gone.
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Hi, a pretty good discussion on cap jams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbDnicII9o
Regards,
Richard
The Duke gets it pretty much right in this video. He mentioned that original caps were made of a thicker metal and I'd also imagine they were made out of more malleable copper versus the brass that new caps are manufactured from. This would probably result in less splits and fragments.
They were thicker and made of copper. I had some back in the late 70's or early 80's but somewhere along the way they got gone.
Bad luck Hawg, they would have been worth a fortune today
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Hi, I wonder if anyone has tried making their own caps. There are recipes on YouTube like this on making the priming compound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6BBZtCwLc
All one would then need is thick copper shells to load in the priming compound.
Even loaded into paper cups should work to eliminate cap parts from locking up the action?
What do you think?
Regards,
Richard
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Hi, another thought. How about putting a rigid sleeve over the cap to prevent cap parts like this:
https://www.mcmaster.com/92510a197
The OD of a Pietta 1851 nipple with Remington #10 cap is 0.180" The ID of the sleeve is 0.192"
BTW, the length of the Pietta nipple with cap is ~0.215" The sleeve length is 0.156".
Those sleeves seem a little expensive, but maybe could be found lower cost.
What do you think?
Regards,
Richard
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Maybe plastic aquarium tubing?
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Hi Jim, I forgot about tubing. Yes that should work. These are available on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Percussion-Cap-Keepers-300-Qty-for-No-10-and-No-11-caps-Color-BLUE/141321540211?hash=item20e76b9273:g:GGIAAOxye5BREkuv
Might be worth trying on the pocket colts.
Regards,
Richard
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You can buy the tubing cheap at Wally World and it isn't hard to determine the correct length. It does the job in holding the caps when fired. GF
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Hi, I wonder if anyone has tried making their own caps. There are recipes on YouTube like this on making the priming compound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6BBZtCwLc
All one would then need is thick copper shells to load in the priming compound.
Even loaded into paper cups should work to eliminate cap parts from locking up the action?
What do you think?
Regards,
Richard
You an still find Tap O Caps but I don't know if they would work with copper. I have used plastic toy caps that come in strips but the ring caps are the same thing. They're not strong enough by themselves so I added a spot from German made roll caps. They do work but aren't 100% reliable.
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I have used aquarium tubing, but only for using primers instead of percussion caps. They do keep the primers from falling off the nipples, but not very period correct!
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Hi, an interesting video on a potential reason for cap sucking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCtsdDuv0gs
Maybe my approach of using reduced force Wolff springs on my revolvers is wrong?
Regards,
Richard
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I have read on other forums where a few other folks have posited that same idea about light mainsprings. Good video!
Regards,
Jim
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Very clearly, people have a lot of trouble with caps. I used to use CCI No. 10s but their sizing is inconsistent. Remington 10s are the same every time and fit just fine on the stock Pietta cones that I use on eight different revolvers. Stock main springs, too. I use each of those guns quite a lot and none have cap rakes.
Ive polished the hammer faces on all of them and on the Colts have also polished that cap channel on the recoil shield that leads off to the right. After seating the caps I go around again and gently press each one with a wooden dowel. I do that out of habit and when I forget that step - the caps still stay on after firing. I have to use my thumbnail to remove spent caps.
I have no idea why I dont suffer the troubles described throughout the C&B shooting world. Dumb luck is as likely an explanation as any I can identify.
I know, lucky me an stuff - but honestly, WTF is going on? Happily perplexed.
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G Dog, you're not alone. I almost never have cap problems. Once in a blue moon, one will gum up the works. But not very often.
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Nomenclature matters. This from Muzzleloading Forum:
Question --
I own a 3rd Model Dragoon, my nipples tend to end up inside the frame causing all sorts of trouble. Is there a fix (?).
Response--
Hold the gun at arms length.
Priceless.
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Nomenclature matters. This from Muzzleloading Forum:
Question --
I own a 3rd Model Dragoon, my nipples tend to end up inside the frame causing all sorts of trouble. Is there a fix (?).
Response--
Hold the gun at arms length.
Priceless.
(7+" (7+" (7+" I'm another one that doesn't have trouble with cap sucking. I prefer CCI caps. I get too many Remington caps that lose their priming compound.
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Nomenclature matters. This from Muzzleloading Forum:
Question --
I own a 3rd Model Dragoon, my nipples tend to end up inside the frame causing all sorts of trouble. Is there a fix (?).
Response--
Hold the gun at arms length.
Priceless.
Indeed. Damn good thing he's not holding the gun below the belt............ L@J
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Nomenclature matters. This from Muzzleloading Forum:
Question --
I own a 3rd Model Dragoon, my nipples tend to end up inside the frame causing all sorts of trouble. Is there a fix (?).
Response--
Hold the gun at arms length.
Priceless.
Indeed. Damn good thing he's not holding the gun below the belt............ L@J
But...but...ain't that where the balls belong?
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I take a jewelers file to the outside corners of the hammer, just slightly rounding the corner. Almost completely eliminates cap sucking.
Thank you for that info tljack . That's very good to know. Tim
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What Jack said. I've done that on all of mine with light paper and a stone. They needed it. Works good.
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(7+"