Let's talk Navy

[Hawg]

Well, since I posted about the differences, Hawg plays second fiddle to me.

How so?

[LonesomePigeon]

sourdough, great post on original '51's.

Bishop said, "The original Colt's and Remingtons that I have handled felt different in my hand than the replicas too. A tiny bit smaller overall with a "feel" that is hard to describe."

The Gregorelli & Uberti 1851 Navy I have is lighter in weight and has a smaller diameter barrel and narrower frame than my Colt 2nd Gen 1851 Navy. This GU is an early one with no proofmarks, serial # 1967. I've not handled any Uberti '51's but I think they are basically the same dimensions as a Colt 2nd Gen, which would mean at some point Uberti totally changed their dimensions from the early GU's.

[Bishop Creek]

Sounds like your Gregorelli & Uberti may actually be closer to the originals than even the 2nd Gen Colt's. I wonder if Uberti changed the dimensions to prevent counterfeiting which was a real concern among collectors in the 1960s. Colt made the early C series 2nd gen square back trigger guards with serial numbers that wouldn't match up with original 1851s.

[Hawg]

I don't know this but the early ones may have been forged. The dimensions would have gotten bigger when they went to cast.

[sourdough]

Well, since I posted about the differences, Hawg plays second fiddle to me.

How so?

   

Hawg, only to address the fact that info I posted info from trusted author(s).

That is NOT to say that your posts/opinions are not valued. Actually, it is just the opposite.

If an apology is required, I am here to do so. I do not want to get into a p match with good compadres.

Jim

[sourdough]

Deleted. Double post.

[Hawg]

Well, since I posted about the differences, Hawg plays second fiddle to me.

How so?

   

Hawg, only to address the fact that info I posted info from trusted author(s).

That is NOT to say that your posts/opinions are not valued. Actually, it is just the opposite.

If an apology is required, I am here to do so. I do not want to get into a p match with good compadres.

Jim

No apology required, I just didn't understand what you meant by it.

[StrawHat]

I am going to copy and paste what I found about original Colt 1851 revolvers, originally written by Nathan Swayze.

1. There are five different barrel addresses
2. There are three different types of front sights
3. There are two thicknesses of the loading lever catch under the muzzle end of the barrel.
4. There are three different types of loading notch in the barrel lug.
5. There are two thicknesses of the barrel lug.
6. There are three types of frames.
7. There are two sizes of cylinder pins.
8. There are two different designs of knurling on the hammer spur.
9. There are two types of back straps.
10. There are four shapes of trigger guards.
11. There are three types of wood grips.
12. There are two styles of serial number stampings.
13. Some of the loading lever rammer screws enter from the left, and some from the right.
14. Orrnsby's signature appears on some of the cylinders and not on others.
15. The Colt patent stamping is in three different locations.
16. The "36 Cal." stamping appears on some of the trigger guards and not on others.
17. Some of the triggers are short, and some are long.
18. Some of the release catches on the fore end of the loading lever are hurled, and others are not.

(Back to my thoughts)

In the originals, that makes up a great challenge to collect one specimen of each.  I have handled a lot of originals and never paid any attention to the variations unless they were obvious or pointed out to me.

Modern replica's with variations are a wonderful chance to have a modest investment in a good collection.

Kevin

[ssb73q]

Modern replica's with variations are a wonderful chance to have a modest investment in a good collection.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, good comment! IMO either the Pietta's or Uberti's are good current choices. I have different 1911s, some Colt, some Springfield, and ParaOrdnance, however, I still call them all 1911s.

To paraphrase; "an 1851 Colt by any other name is still an 1851."

Regards,
Richard

[sourdough]

Kevin,

Thanks for posting that list. That should give some folks a bit of pause when considering which replica 1851 is correct. 

However, I am going to add to the confusion and use Swayze's book as affirmation:

I am going to copy and paste what I found about original Colt 1851 revolvers, originally written by Nathan Swayze.

7. There are two sizes of cylinder pins.

True, but the 1st Model had the wedge over the wedge screw, whereas the cylinder pin had a notch as opposed to a slot. Another variation. (pg 29, Plate 2).

9. There are two types of back straps.

There are four types of backstraps, two brass and two iron (pgs 134-135, Plate 82).

10. There are four shapes of trigger guards.

There are five differently shaped trigger guards (one squareback brass, 4 various round/oval configurations, some being either brass or iron ) (pgs. 135-137, Plate 83).

14. Ormsby's signature appears on some of the cylinders and not on others.

I have read that the die used to roll-stamp the cylinders wore out to the point that Ormsby's sig (being shallow) did not imprint. I have no cite on hand.

(Back to my thoughts)

In the originals, that makes up a great challenge to collect one specimen of each.  I have handled a lot of originals and never paid any attention to the variations unless they were obvious or pointed out to me.

Modern replica's with variations are a wonderful chance to have a modest investment in a good collection.

Kevin

You are one of the people I always rely upon for my info.

Thanks again, Kevin.

Jim

[StrawHat]

Jim,

The list I pasted was copied from a speech given by Swayze to the Colt Society, date unknown.  I am also not aware if the book he wrote was done before or after the speech.  Odds are, after, as he had a bunch more information in the book.

I like researching with books rather than the internet.  Books were written and then fact checked prior to publishing.  Not all were perfect but they were a lot better than what passes for research now.  Anyone can write something online and in a week will be quoted as an expert.  No checking other than "...I read it on the internet... "

Kevin,

You are one of the people I always rely upon for my info.

Thanks again, Kevin.

Jim

I am humbled.  Thank you.

Kevin

[Ringo]

The list I pasted was copied from a speech given by Swayze to the Colt Society, date unknown.  I am also not aware if the book he wrote was done before or after the speech.  Odds are, after, as he had a bunch more information in the book.

Swayze gave a speech on the topic of 1851 Navies during the Fall 1970 meeting of the American Society of Arms Collectors in Houston. It was then published in their Spring 1971 bulletin, and can be downloaded from their site : http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B023_Swayze.pdf
The book is copyrighted 1967.

[Captainkirk]

Kevin,
You are one of the people I always rely upon for my info.
Thanks again, Kevin.

Jim

I am humbled.  Thank you.

Kevin

OTOH, I don't listen to a word you say, Kevin.
(jk...!)

[Hewy]

Well gents, this has and will be one of the best conversations I have read.
I confess , my attention span is short and I have a need to read equally short presented details to get it.
The fact that you all are shooters of the replicas ,and some originals I'm sure ,adds to the glue that
binds.
Thanks for the fun.

[Electric Miner]

Here are a Pietta 1851 (Top) and a Colt 2nd Gen 1851 (Bottom)...


The grips are obviously shaped different, but there are some other differences.


How many can you see?