Colt Signature Series 1851 Navy

[Captainkirk]

Well !!
 Thank you Richard and Captain!!


L.P. , I would be glad to give it a look over and my suggestions.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

No need to thank me, Mike. Your work speaks for itself.

[LonesomePigeon]

 Thank you all for the advice. Here's what I did.

The arbor was too fat, there's a shelf inside the holes in the barrel lug where the frame pins go and the frame nose was too long. The barrel was not going all the way on as evidenced by a gap between the frame pins and the barrel lug. This is the point at which the cylinder gap measured .02.

First I removed the frame pins(actually they came out on their own but this was a good thing. It was a good thing because it allowed me to lap the arbor to the arbor hole, which then allowed the barrel lug to seat firmly against the frame nose. Once the barrel was seated the cylinder gap was down to about .01, with the wedge screw out and the wedge hammered all the way in.
Next I put a shim on the end of the arbor, I just estimated this shim at about .004 and I lapped the barrel lug to the frame nose until the shim prevented any further lapping effect to occur.

Next I put the frame pins back in but now they were too long because the lapping of the lug and the frame nose made the holes in the frame and lug shallower. So then I flied down the frame pins until the barrel lug could sit firmly against the frame nose. I also had to turn down part of the frame pins because of the shelf inside the frame pin holes.

The end result is the cylinder gap is now about .0035, good enough for me, for now at least. Now all I have to do is clean everything free of oil and JB Weld the arbor shim to the end of the arbor and Locktite the frame pins into the frame. I will probably shoot it before I affix everything in place permanently.

 

[sourdough]

 
Remove the wedge screw, drive in the wedge. Is the cylinder locked up?  You have a short arbor. That's the test.

Thank you all for the advice. Here's what I did.

Once the barrel was seated the cylinder gap was down to about .01, with the wedge screw out and the wedge hammered all the way in.

It sounds like the pistol is coming along better.

I only have 4 years experience with Pietta 1851 Navy type .36 pistols, and a lot of you folks have a lot more experience than I do. I just have one observation/question:

Many used replica C&B pistols I see on GB have good slots on the frame screws. The most damaged screw slot is the wedge screw.

IMO, one should never have to remove the wedge screw during any cleaning/maintenance routines. The sole purpose of this screw is to catch the lip of the wedge spring when removing the barrel from the frame, capturing it in the barrel lug. If one wants to remove the wedge from the lug in this position, all one has to do is lift up the wedge on the left side and wiggle slightly. To replace it after maintenance, just reverse the procedure.

Since mine are Piettas with the sufficiently correct arbor length, I have slightly fitted the wedge (cylinder side) for a thumb-press fit just so the wedge spring lip barely  protrudes on the right side of the barrel lug. I have 3 newer Pietta 1851 Navy type .36 pistols that I can swap barrels, cylinders, and frames, and all have an approximate .002" cylinder/barrel gap no matter the combination, but I do keep the original wedge with the original barrel.

I can understand why talented pistol smiths would do that when repairing a gun, but that is a different story it seems.

If I am wrong here, I am all eyes/ears for rebuttals/corrections.

LP, hope it all works out for you, sir.

Regards,

Jim

[Hawg]

I have slightly fitted the wedge (cylinder side) for a thumb-press fit just so the wedge spring lip barely  protrudes on the right side of the barrel lug.

You are correct on the function of the wedge screw but if the wedge didn't protrude enough for the lip of the spring to catch when new it would have soon broken in to that stage without fitting.

[mike116]

Jim,   many uninformed individuals believe that you can adjust the cylinder gap by controlling the depth the wedge goes in with the wedge retaining screw.   By messing with screw trying to obtain a consistent cylinder gap the end up buggering up the wedge retaining screw.

[sourdough]

I have slightly fitted the wedge (cylinder side) for a thumb-press fit just so the wedge spring lip barely  protrudes on the right side of the barrel lug.

You are correct on the function of the wedge screw but if the wedge didn't protrude enough for the lip of the spring to catch when new it would have soon broken in to that stage without fitting.

Hawg, I would prefer to fit the wedge prior to firing the pistol. Even as you say, my way still ensures that the wedge spring protrudes from the right side of the barrel lug, no matter if firing the pistol with the fitted wedge allows the wedge to work its way into the lug further.

Jim, many uninformed individuals believe that you can adjust the cylinder gap by controlling the depth the wedge goes in with the wedge retaining screw.  By messing with screw trying to obtain a consistent cylinder gap the end up buggering up the wedge retaining screw.

You may be right about that, but if anyone looks at that with any mechanical aptitude, there is no way that the wedge function insofar as fitting the arbor or barrel slot has anything to do with the wedge screw.

Goon, Richard, Hawg, Cap'n, and many others know what it is all about. It is our job as a forum to edumacate others so as not to ruin gun parts and to insure that many replicas see the light of day in good shape years from now. How to do that? I am not sure.

Jim

[mike116]

Jim, many uninformed individuals believe that you can adjust the cylinder gap by controlling the depth the wedge goes in with the wedge retaining screw.  By messing with screw trying to obtain a consistent cylinder gap the end up buggering up the wedge retaining screw.

You may be right about that, but if anyone looks at that with any mechanical aptitude, there is no way that the wedge function insofar as fitting the arbor or barrel slot has anything to do with the wedge screw.

Jim

I have had this argument in other places on the web,  you would be surprised at the idiocy that prevails in some places.   Wrong information is abundant and unfortunately neither mechanical aptitude nor common sense is a prerequisite for membership on most forums, no matter what the subject.

[LonesomePigeon]

"IMO, one should never have to remove the wedge screw during any cleaning/maintenance routines. The sole purpose of this screw is to catch the lip of the wedge spring when removing the barrel from the frame, capturing it in the barrel lug. If one wants to remove the wedge from the lug in this position, all one has to do is lift up the wedge on the left side and wiggle slightly. To replace it after maintenance, just reverse the procedure."

Normally this is true but if the wedge screw hole is too low then the wedge screw pushes on the wedge and it can be hard to tell if the wedge is really in as far as it can go. In some cases if the wedge screw is bearing down so hard it pushes the wedge into the arbor over time it can loosen the arbor. The remedy for this is to chuck the wedge screw in a drill and turn down the head. The wedge screw on this gun is a bit lower than I would like but I don't know if it will hurt the arbor.

[45 Dragoon]

Jim,
I understand what your intention is as far as the "thumb pressure" thing, a lot of CASS shooters do that with their match revolvers .  .  . mainly because they load off the gun. Of course, they use as little powder as possible and their guns would probably be fine if that's all they ever do. That being said, I never shot anything but max loads in any of them!  Even with my cartridge guns, I reload on the upper end of the spectrum. Therefore, these revolvers need to be tight and have the best fit  and tollerances possible. Can you imagine Ruger (or anyone) offering a .44mag with the tolerances of our cap guns?! Of course our cap guns are a low pressure arm and thanks to the Italians that have been able to  continue to mass produce an affordable bunch of offerings. If they are going to be used the way the originals were intended, they need help to survive. They certainly won't survive if left in " as from factory " condition. So, future users of these revolvers will have exactly the same revolver as you have today. If your revolver is left to family or friends or sold in an estate sale, what are they getting?
  That brings things to - why the "upgrade"  or service is needed.  These aren't 1st gen (meaning made correctly) revolvers. They are copies with "short cuts" built in. The short cuts are to the detriment of the revolver in question. To correct those is to allow it to be used as if it were a 1st gen. To put one in perfect operating order is to, more than likely, have that revolver be a testament to the design of the originals. That's why I do what I do.

So, back to the "thumb pressure" issue - Colts directions specify to " drive the wedge out." That to me is much different than "push" the wedge out. Driving a wedge in will remove any "slack tollerances" in the arbor/arbor hole fitment and impart a contact or connection which will make the two assemblies act as a single unit. Of course friction will keep the wedge in place and under tension will do more so.  When acting as a single unit, the two assemblies won't destory each other (as they normally do).  I would assume that if you check your barrel/cylinder clearance with a feeler gauge, (cylinder pulled back hard against the recoil ring) and then tap your wedge in rather sharply, I'm relatively sure the clearance will change.  I'm not saying your revolver will or won't last, it's your revolver you can do whatever you want with it. The instructions for the originals state otherwise so I feel, it's the designers point, not mine, so I pretty much attempt to set mine and my customers revolvers up as close as I can to pass the "engineers test" plus a tuning for longevity and some "extras" (action stop, bolt block) so you won't/can't tear it up!!

Ok, that's enough .  .  .  . 

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I took the gun to the range today and it shot really good, except for the fact that the wedge kept backing out. It didn't do that the first time I shot it so I wonder if it could have something to do with lapping the barrel lug and frame nose, which could have changed slightly the angle at which the wedge fits into the slot?

[Hawg]

I took the gun to the range today and it shot really good, except for the fact that the wedge kept backing out. It didn't do that the first time I shot it so I wonder if it could have something to do with lapping the barrel lug and frame nose, which could have changed slightly the angle at which the wedge fits into the slot?

When you did that it knocked the wedge slots out of alignment.

[45 Dragoon]

All I can say is, if the wedge is backing out, the two assemblies aren't dancing to the same tune.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @  goonsgunworks

[LonesomePigeon]

 EDIT: work in progress.

[LonesomePigeon]

Got it running. Basically, when I got it I could see that the cylinder gap was too large, there was a small gap between the frame nose and the barrel lug and the wedge was too tight. Still I cleaned it and fired it firguring once would be alright. That's the group I posted and I was happy to see it not hitting too much right or left but basicaly center.
Here is the short version of what I did.
Took the frame pins out(actually they came out on their own).
Lapped the arbor to the arbor hole. At this point the cylinder gap was still .01.
Put what I thought would be an appropriate sized shim down the arbor hole.
Lapped the barrel lug to the frame nose. Since the shim was in the arbor hole this allowed me to simultaneously bed the arbor and set the cylinder gap.
Unfortunately once the cylinder gap was the right size the wedge was no longer tight and the frame pins were too long. At this point I also discovered the frame pins were angled slightly downward.
Then I shortened the frame pins and turned them down until the barrel lug would sit flush against the frame nose.
I thought everything was good so I took it out and fired it. This is when I discovered the wedge would would not stay in. I looked at the wedge and I could see pressure dings. I thought the dings were why the wedge was slipping out so I filed the sides of the wedge.That didn't help. It turns out the dings were probably caused by the factory pressing the wedge in while the arbor was too fat.
So I shimmed the wedge and that worked. Now it shoot good and the wedge stays in.
At this point I guess the gun looks like Bubba got a hold of it but then again it when I got it it looked like Bubba had been in charge of quality control. Really the only thing I did wrong was file the sides of the wedge, I probably didn't need to do that but I may still have needed to shim the wedge, I don't know.
There is something else. The arbor seems susceptible to fouling. I can only fire about 3 cylinders worth of shots and then it gets hard to turn. It is not fouling the cylinder face, it's fouling the arbor, just like how a Remington's cylinder pin gets fouled. I tested this by cleaning only the fouling on the arbor and in the cylinder's arbor hole, while leaving all the fouling on the cylinder face and forcing cone, and it turns fine.