The cheapest Colt on the market?

[Hawg]

Yeah, you're right. That was how they were marketed. If you want to blow one up you can load it with smokeless with a bp kicker. I don't think you can stuff enough black in a standard .44 cylinder to blow it up no matter the projectile.

[Captainkirk]

I don't want to blow 'em up. I want to be able to do a simple conversion (on the ones that are still good/tight) that would allow you to should several thousand good 30gr loads out of them...in other words, a lifetime of shooting for most people.
I know how and why the arbor shoots loose, and I have that figured out (on paper, anyway). Constructing a cheap and abuse-handling steel ring is the next item to tackle. And I'm working on it.

[sourdough]

Dummy here. I am confused about identification of the inner ring and the outer ring and really don't understand what you folks are talking about.

I have noticed that the recoil shield on my Pietta G&G brasser is cut more deeply into the whatever ring is behind the cylinder, creating a "flat" on that side, as opposed to both Pietta Navy steels that are completely round.

All of you folks are great and I am just trying to learn from you guys.

Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Captainkirk]

Dummy here. I am confused about identification of the inner ring and the outer ring and really don't understand what you folks are talking about.

I have noticed that the recoil shield on my Pietta G&G brasser is cut more deeply into the whatever ring is behind the cylinder, creating a "flat" on that side, as opposed to both Pietta Navy steels that are completely round.

All of you folks are great and I am just trying to learn from you guys.

Thanks in advance.

Jim

The only dumb question is the one you are afraid to ask, Jim!
On a typical Colt-style recoil shield, there is an inner ring (see pointer):


...and an outer surface ring:



...upon which the cylinder "batters" the recoil shield upon firing.
On your typical steel framed Colt, this is really not an issue. On a brasser, however, the soft brass becomes "imprinted" from the back oif the steel cylinder and allows the cylinder to come back further; this opens up your cylinder-to-forcing cone gap and allows the hammer strike to push the cylinder further forward on strike, and further backwards on recoil...a "slide hammer effect" if you will. After an undetermined number of rounds with heavy (+25gr) loads, your daily driver brasser will now sport a (cylinder) gap you can chuck a cat through, have an imprinted recoil shield (ring) and the next carnage up to bat  is that the brass arbor threads (in the recoil shield) stretch and the arbor (cylinder axle pin) works loose. You now have a bona fide brass boat anchor.
This is the scenario I am trying to eliminate.

[Hawg]

[sourdough]

Cap,

That explains it very well, sir. The inner ring was pretty much a no-brainer (to me) but the outer ring eluded me until you explained that it was basically the recoil shield in its entirety. Since the "inner" ring is a machined part of the frame, I take it your thin steel "washer" fits between the frame inner ring and the cylinder? Your photo #2 illustrates the flat on the inner ring, same as my G&G. Why that is I have not a clue compared to the steel frame pistols. Mine are all Piettas, you may have another model.

Just curious, but even with a thin steel washer, how is that going to obviate cylinder battering against the inner ring, unless you feel the steel washer won't impact the inner brass ring very much? I would think that it would not change anything unless the geometry of the cylinder rear face impacting the steel washer is different than impacting the brass inner ring.

I am not downing you and your endevors.  I am rather curious as to how it turns out.

Good luck, sir!

Jim

[sourdough]

Wow, Hawg, the right hand pic pistol looks ready for a Rebel melting pot!

Jim

[Hawg]

Yeah it does but it's not mine. I glommed the pic off another forum and actually I believe he repaired it but it got me to thinking why is the ring around the cylinder ratchet raised, so I got to looking at my G&G and it's raised to give clearance for the safety pins. After seeing that it makes me wonder how the washer could be the same thickness as the raised ring without impacting the pins. I know of two or three people that have done it and said it worked but also said nothing about interference with the pins so now I am confused.

[Captainkirk]

Cap,

That explains it very well, sir. The inner ring was pretty much a no-brainer (to me) but the outer ring eluded me until you explained that it was basically the recoil shield in its entirety. Since the "inner" ring is a machined part of the frame, I take it your thin steel "washer" fits between the frame inner ring and the cylinder? Your photo #2 illustrates the flat on the inner ring, same as my G&G. Why that is I have not a clue compared to the steel frame pistols. Mine are all Piettas, you may have another model.

Just curious, but even with a thin steel washer, how is that going to obviate cylinder battering against the inner ring, unless you feel the steel washer won't impact the inner brass ring very much? I would think that it would not change anything unless the geometry of the cylinder rear face impacting the steel washer is different than impacting the brass inner ring.

I am not downing you and your endevors.  I am rather curious as to how it turns out.

Good luck, sir!

Jim

Jim (and Hawg):
I checked, and the bearing surface for the cylinder is indeed the inner ring, not the outer ring. A thin metal washer is not going to suffice, IMHO. I think the inner ring will have to be machined flush with the surface and a steel ring affixed to the recoil shield (or embedded) to act as a bearing surface. This means removing the arbor, which works out well with my plan anyway. Now I just need to figure out the ring replacement. Suggestions welcome!

[Hawg]

 The cylinder ratchet goes inside the ring and the ring itself is the bearing surface for the cylinder. The washer needs to be the same thickness as the ring to nullify the forces on the ring. However you will need to figure out the effects on the safety pins. There's been a few people do the washer and say it does work but I don't see how it can without the pins binding. There's been discussions on this at the firing line and the high road forums.

[Captainkirk]

Jim, the frame I took photos of are from my son's Pietta (date code BF; 2008) in which the arbor "shot loose". I subsequently removed the staking roll pin, then tapped and replaced it with an Allen set screw, which lasted all of 24 shots before getting tooth-rattling loose again after 24 shots.... I bought him a new brass frame off GB and made the gun right again...
This will be my platform for experimentation as the arbor is already shot loose again. As I mentioned; I have a plan for that.
I also have a formulative plan for the inner ring repair in the back of my mind. It might take a bit of hillbilly engineering, but I will certainly keep you guys posted...

[Captainkirk]

I will be taking measurements and doing some inquisitive shopping tomorrow. I have this thing pretty much figured out in my head. Now to put it to the test....

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Guys,

Cabela's has these on sale for $150 with free shipping. I purchased one last time they were on sale, I also found a steel frame which I plan on turning into a Cartridge Conversion w/loading gate as soon as I can come up with a 5 shot 44 Colt Cylinder.

BartSr placed a steel ring on a Spesco 1851 but the links are no longer active. I did copy all & put into a word doc, but to big to add as an attachment. I thought he did an excellent job reworking the inner ring with a steel replacement. I'm not sure how long it would last, but it looked like an improvement.

[Hawg]

 I also found a steel frame which I plan on turning into a Cartridge Conversion w/loading gate as soon as I can come up with a 5 shot 44 Colt Cylinder.

  You do know that to convert it to .44 you'll have to use heeled bullets or hollow base bullets.

 

[AntiqueSledMan]

Not a problem Hawg, http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8675.0

I did check with Howell Old West about building a Gated Conversion in 5 shot 44 Colt but they said they didn't offer that.
I'm sure I could get a Kirst custom built but haven't checked with them.