Experts weigh in?

[Captainkirk]

My buddy called last night. He just won an auction on two guns...an ASP 1860 Army and Navy Arms 1851 Navy. The Army is just what you would expect it to be for a San Paolo; DGG barrel marking, etc. The Navy, however...different story.
It's Uberti, yes. It's also stamped "NAVY ARMS CO" in big block letters both on the left side of the frame (where you would normally see "Colt's Patent") and also on the top barrel flat. OK; not so unusual. But what REALLY stands out is:

1) the cylinder is smooth, non-roll engraved

2) On the bottom barrel flat, under the loading lever, it is stamped "Made In Italy" with the preceding engraved "G.U." indicating this is clearly a Gregorelli & Uberti gun. Date code is XVII (1961).

3) This gun came in a cased set lined in red velvet with a powder flask and bullet mould. He did not provide me with a serial number, but I'm thinking he scored BIG TIME on this one, paying no more than some are asking for used brassers. What do you experts think?

[Fingers McGee]

Octagonal barrel or round? Pictures would help.

[Captainkirk]

Octagonal. (as I mentioned, "barrel flats" in my post)
He sent me some pix via text message but I will probably have to see if I can upload to my Flickr account tonight. If so, I'll post them in this thread.
Thanks for the swift reply. I'll try to get the S/N for you as well.

[Fingers McGee]

Octagonal. (as I mentioned, "barrel flats" in my post)
He sent me some pix via text message but I will probably have to see if I can upload to my Flickr account tonight. If so, I'll post them in this thread.
Thanks for the swift reply. I'll try to get the S/N for you as well.

G&Gs and L&Rs have barrel flats & round barrels

[tljack]

CaptainKirk,






I bought a revolver like that from one of the forum members here last year.
Val Forgett contacted a subcontractor of Beretta, Gregorelli.  They started the first prototypes. A young man named Alberto Uberti helped him. They became G&U. My source is a forgotten internet page and the book, Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas". A Collector's and Shooter's Guide.
Apparently the first couple hundred 51's did not have the roll stamp on the cylinder.

Together they made four different models. I can only remember the 1860 Army Colt

Apparently many of these have become lost or fallen into much disrepair. Sounds like your friend got a terrific deal. One we are always dreaming of and usually does not happen. 

BTW...I am no expert!

Terry

[Captainkirk]

Octagonal. (as I mentioned, "barrel flats" in my post)
He sent me some pix via text message but I will probably have to see if I can upload to my Flickr account tonight. If so, I'll post them in this thread.
Thanks for the swift reply. I'll try to get the S/N for you as well.

G&Gs and L&Rs have barrel flats & round barrels

Oh, right! (duh!) I guess it makes sense to me because I saw the pix.
Anyway, he's not sure if the cased set stuff is add-on or original with the gun, but neither of us has seen a GU that isn't plainly marked GU on the frame and barrel top flat.
Could this have been one of the early transitional guns from when Val Forgett struck the original deal with Uberti to import guns under the Navy Arms logo?

[tljack]

Octagonal. (as I mentioned, "barrel flats" in my post)
He sent me some pix via text message but I will probably have to see if I can upload to my Flickr account tonight. If so, I'll post them in this thread.
Thanks for the swift reply. I'll try to get the S/N for you as well.

G&Gs and L&Rs have barrel flats & round barrels

Oh, right! (duh!) I guess it makes sense to me because I saw the pix.
Anyway, he's not sure if the cased set stuff is add-on or original with the gun, but neither of us has seen a GU that isn't plainly marked GU on the frame and barrel top flat.
Could this have been one of the early transitional guns from when Val Forgett struck the original deal with Uberti to import guns under the Navy Arms logo?

Mine has Made in Italy with GU under it in the right side of the barrel. On the top of the barrel and on the left side of the frame it says Nay Arms Co.

[Hawg]

Could this have been one of the early transitional guns from when Val Forgett struck the original deal with Uberti to import guns under the Navy Arms logo?

Weren't those first ones made around 57 or 58? That would only be three or four years into production. I'm sure a lot of changes were made in those first years.

[tljack]

Could this have been one of the early transitional guns from when Val Forgett struck the original deal with Uberti to import guns under the Navy Arms logo?

Weren't those first ones made around 57 or 58? That would only be three or four years into production. I'm sure a lot of changes were made in those first years.

I wish I could find the old post from another forum about this. According to it GU made the first 1851s in 1958. The hope was that the coming anniversary of our nation would create a market for them.  I was told they made 2000 of the 51 Navys. The first couple hundred did not have the roll stamp. Val Forgett had them also make reproductions of 3 other Colts. The next was the "Reb 60 Army" and I do not recall what the other 2 were.

My 1851 Navy GU came with a case. Unfortunately I just discovered when I went to close it's lid that the top badly warped and partially pulled apart. The humidity is so low here and we heat with a pellet stove drying it further. Hopefully  I will be able to repair it correctly.The only contents mine came with is a Colt flask and a cap tin.

[sourdough]

Although not the same gun as has been described, here is an original Navy Arms GU and some text about it.

Regards,

Jim

[LonesomePigeon]

Sounds like your friend has a Gregorelli & Uberti 1851 Navy. I have 4 of them. I like them, they have a different feel and balance than current Uberti's. My earliest is #1xxx and my latest is 5xxx and they all have a Navy Arms... barrel address with G.U./MADE IN ITALY on the right side barrel lug. I have never heard of one with a Gregorelli & Uberti barrel address.

G.U. made 1851's, Griswold & Gunnison's, 1858 Remington .44's and 1858 Remington .36's. I suspect G.U. also made 1860 Army's and 1861 Navy's that were either not marked or just marked as Uberti, or they may have been very early Uberti's made with leftover G.U. parts after Gregorelli & Uberti split up. I believe I have photos but it would take some doing to find them. 

[LonesomePigeon]

Ok I have photos of the following:

a 1964 produced 1851 Navy that has A. UBERTI stamped under the barrel. It has an engraved cylinder.

 a 1965 produced .44 caliber brass framed Griswold & Gunnison that has a GU insignia. The insignia looks like a U, inside a G, inside the front view of a muzzle with a sight on top.

... and here is a link to a 1963 produced 1861 Navy, which you cannot see if any maker's name is under the barrel:

http://www.maxanet.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?condon/27712

One thing that is the same on all these guns is the hammers have horizontal lines instead of checkering and they have a wide square notch instead of a V notch. Going by the dates you can see that in the 1963 - 64 time period some guns had the G.U. brand and some had just the plain Uberti brand. I find this type of history interesting and I think 1963 is the earliest 1861 Navy repro I have seen. Also interesting is the '61 has a bead front sight.

[tljack]

Sounds like your friend has a Gregorelli & Uberti 1851 Navy. I have 4 of them. I like them, they have a different feel and balance than current Uberti's. My earliest is #1xxx and my latest is 5xxx and they all have a Navy Arms... barrel address with G.U./MADE IN ITALY on the right side barrel lug. I have never heard of one with a Gregorelli & Uberti barrel address.

G.U. made 1851's, Griswold & Gunnison's, 1858 Remington .44's and 1858 Remington .36's. I suspect G.U. also made 1860 Army's and 1861 Navy's that were either not marked or just marked as Uberti, or they may have been very early Uberti's made with leftover G.U. parts after Gregorelli & Uberti split up. I believe I have photos but it would take some doing to find them.

The book I mentioned earlier to Fingers, "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas has a forward written by Val Forgett Sr. In his article he explains the orgins of G&U. He refers to a Colt Navy 1851 and a Reb Army 60.

[Hawg]

Sounds like your friend has a Gregorelli & Uberti 1851 Navy. I have 4 of them. I like them, they have a different feel and balance than current Uberti's. My earliest is #1xxx and my latest is 5xxx and they all have a Navy Arms... barrel address with G.U./MADE IN ITALY on the right side barrel lug. I have never heard of one with a Gregorelli & Uberti barrel address.

G.U. made 1851's, Griswold & Gunnison's, 1858 Remington .44's and 1858 Remington .36's. I suspect G.U. also made 1860 Army's and 1861 Navy's that were either not marked or just marked as Uberti, or they may have been very early Uberti's made with leftover G.U. parts after Gregorelli & Uberti split up. I believe I have photos but it would take some doing to find them.

It was stated in the first post it was a G&U made in 61.