Kirst Two Stage Hand

[Navy Six]

A couple of years ago I installed Kirst Cylinders in a pair of new Uberti 60 Armies. Installation went OK but the hands were a trifle short which always bothered me. I just saw where Kirst was offering a two stage hand(just like a Colt SAA) to address this issue. I ordered and just installed them. First gun took a bit of fitting as the hand was a little long and also needed material removed from the front tip of the top hand. I expected more of the same for the second gun but the darn hand dropped right in. However, both guns now exhibit a bit of hammer overtravel which didn't exist before with the stock hand. I've decided to install Goons(THANK YOU) action stop using a set screw under the mainspring. I probably will use a 1/4 X 28 and will have to determine the appropriate length.
Overall I am happy I decided to do this.

[Zulch]

Navy Six, man that sounds great!!👍👍 if you have time would you mind taking a picture or two. I would like to see. The kirst cylinders have been an interest to me for awhile. I do not have one nor do I have a Howell drop in. Thanks for starting this thread N6.

[Navy Six]

Zulch, I will try to comply with the pictures. The 60 Army/45 Colt conversion is a little tricky because you are going from a 6 shot cylinder to a 5 shot. I've done several Navy/38 LC Kirst projects and it was much less involved since both the Kirst and stock percussion cylinders are 6 shot.

[Zulch]

Zulch, I will try to comply with the pictures. The 60 Army/45 Colt conversion is a little tricky because you are going from a 6 shot gun to a 5 shot. I've done several Navy/38 LC Kirst projects and it was much less involved since both the Kirst and stock percussion cylinders are 6 shot.

Ahhhhhh, I see👍 So, there some kind of mod you have to do to the timing/hand or does Kirst take that into account when a 5 shot cylinder is placed in a given fitted six shot cylinder Open top?  This is interesting to me.👍👍

[45 Dragoon]

Navy Six,  1/4  X 28 is for the adjustable wedge bearing (in the arbor), use a #6  X 32 set screw for the action stop.

I got the 2 fingered hands as well  but they didn't work out. I was hoping one of them would work in my 60 Army (Beauty and the Beast) but I just went back to my normal setup. Part of the problem may have been my already stretched trigger sear which is how I lengthen the cycle for the regular single fingered hand. That's the only way I know how to end up with correct and perfect timing.

Mike

[Marshal Will]

Thanks for the information regarding these hands. I've often wondered about this. I guess the double stage hand isn't good for the 5-shot Kirst.

[sprat]

Thank you

I saw Cimarron had the same item

So if I do  38 navy I will get the hand

[Marshal Will]

I reread the first post and see I misinterpreted. This does sound like it would be a good thing to do. Maybe one of these days I'll try one of those hands. Thanks for all the information.

[Navy Six]

Well, I just picked up my Pietta 44 Navy/Kirst conversion and realized the same issue as the Uberti's--slow cocking the unloaded gun reveals cylinder carry up/lock up is a trifle short. I know a loaded cylinder has more weight and the inertia, especially with normal cocking effort, will carry up the cylinder to full lock up. I also realize the hand can be "stretched" a bit. HOWEVER, I just can't live with a gun that isn't quite right. I participate in a lot of Cowboy matches and don't want to worry about the gun firing slightly out of battery. So I placed another order with Kirst for their two stage hand. They must be anticipating future orders as there were 66 hands alone available for the Pietta.
BTW Sprat if you do the 38 Navy conversion you may not run into issues with the stock hand. That is because the 38 Kirst is a 6 shot cylinder same as your percussion cylinder. I have done several of those and the Kirst cylinder virtually dropped in with no fitting. The 45 Kirst is a 5 shot which presents the issue of the stock hand being originally fitted to a 6 shot cylinder.

[45 Dragoon]

Navy Six, first off, I was wrong on my post above!  1/4 x 28 is for the wedge bearing (nothing to do with arbor length) but action stops are #10 x 32 set screws. Cap Posts are made from #6 x 32 SS screws.  (#6 x 32 screw shafts are also used for action stops in Remingtons and mount on the trigger guard tab.  Bottom of the hammer has to be clearanced.)

 Now, any time you're checking the timing, you should always drag a finger on the cyl to keep it against the hand.
My comment about the 2 fingered hand also was wrong! The revolver I was "testing" it on already had a stretched trigger sear .  .  .  so the cycle was longer than stock to begin with.  I'll be trying another one with "normal" length parts fairly soon (I'll be testing a product for a "particular" conversion company .  .  . !!)

Mike

[Navy Six]

Thanks for the reply Mike! I should have remembered to drag my finger against the cylinder when checking timing, Mea Culpa! As far as the set screw size, too late! The 6x32 looked a little small to me, but since this was my first attempt at your recommended action stop, I simply went forward. Anyway both Uberti 1860s are finished and I am satisified as the hammers stop with a nice solid "clunk" right as the sear sets. In the future I will go with the larger size set screw but for now I'm quite happy with the results

[Marshal Will]

I put installed one of the two-stage hands today. It went in and worked smooth as silk with no modification. When I turn the thing on it's left side (gang-banger style) and cock it, though, it hangs up. As I recall, the fix for that is to put a bit of a curve on the hand. I'll check that with Bill Kelly before bending it any. Otherwise, it was a straight drop-in part. The original hand couldn't turn the 5-shot cylinder all the way to lock-up but the two-stage one does.

[Marshal Will]

This morning I called Bill Kelly and he said that bending the hand is not a good solution with a two-stage hand. There should be a bevel on the outside of both tips to prevent this issue. I don't recall seeing that done to the hand I got so it'll have to come out and get double checked for that, adding the bevel if it isn't there.

[Captainkirk]

Marshal, this is the primary reason I went with the Taylor's 6 shot version on my Remmy conversion. It was total drop-in...plug 'n' play.
Well, that and the fact I get an extra shot out of the bargain.

[Zulch]

Lot to be said for an 1871-1872 Open Top