Conversion Cylinders

[Zulch]

Howdy all, I hope everyone is doing well and enjoying the holiday season with their families.
     Okay, I do not have any conversion cylinders for my BP guns. I've been looking on Midway at the available conversion cylinders for the calibers that I have. I was thinking of maybe buying one for a Dragoon and or the Walker? I see a lot of Howells brand. I have also heard of the Kirst cylinders. I would like some opinions from anyone willing to share their experience. From what I remember, it seems that there are different opinions about shooting a smokeless cartridge in these black powder guns? I've heard the metal used in these guns are not designed for that? Also, if I were to buy one for a specific gun is it best practice to have a gunsmith do the fitting? Anyway, at the risk of sounding redundant on this topic I am starting this post. I would love to know the pros and cons on this topic. Thanks Z

[45 Dragoon]

Well,   

I would highly recommend a conversion cylinder  .  .  .   otherwise,  you're missing out on a really important step in the "evolution" of our SA revolvers. To me it's an excellent blend of  Victorian era Beauty and modern convenience!
  As far as which conversion to get, it may depend more on the revolver you're going to use it in. The Remington platform makes " drop cyls" ( remove  to load/ unload) easy to use and somewhat "pc".  Howell and Kirst both make drop cylinders for that platform.
 Now, to answer your question , the open-top platform is best "converted" with a "gated conversion" ( I prefer Kirst cyls) instead of using a drop cyl ( not to mention it's "pc" ).  The best thing about converting the Dragoon/Walker is that they stay 6 shooters rather than dropping a round for the Army "belt pistol".  Personally,  I'm partial to the Dragoon rather than the Walker, mainly because of the additional chamber length the Walker cyl has .  .  .  the Dragoon cyl has a "generous enough " chamber length that will allow about any bullet weight you want to load.
  As far as "what" to shoot in your Dragoon,  you can shoot anything you want in 45C at least up to +p 45C rounds (again  with Kirst cyls).  These revolvers (across the board) are an excellent support system for the cyls as I've been shooting them for many years and ( with new found knowledge) have been shooting  the "muscular" rounds ( that tend to bend "run of the mill" top strap revolvers) in mine for the last year and a half.  If you think you'd like to shoot that type ammo, I would suggest a close tolerance ( arbor out and reinstalled) build.  All mine have shown absolutely NO signs of accelerated  wear  of any kind including the wedges which are perfect. The ot design is far more robust than most will ever understand.  The caveat is, they must be set up as designed. If you're going to stick with  "off the shelf" or tier 1 ammo you still need to correct the arbor length  as a minimum and hold "endshake " to  .003" maximum.
   Use only tier 1 loads in a Howell cylinder.

Mike

[Zulch]

Well,   

I would highly recommend a conversion cylinder  .  .  .   otherwise,  you're missing out on a really important step in the "evolution" of our SA revolvers. To me it's an excellent blend of  Victorian era Beauty and modern convenience!
  As far as which conversion to get, it may depend more on the revolver you're going to use it in. The Remington platform makes " drop cyls" ( remove  to load/ unload) easy to use and somewhat "pc".  Howell and Kirst both make drop cylinders for that platform.
 Now, to answer your question , the open-top platform is best "converted" with a "gated conversion" ( I prefer Kirst cyls) instead of using a drop cyl ( not to mention it's "pc" ).  The best thing about converting the Dragoon/Walker is that they stay 6 shooters rather than dropping a round for the Army "belt pistol".  Personally,  I'm partial to the Dragoon rather than the Walker, mainly because of the additional chamber length the Walker cyl has .  .  .  the Dragoon cyl has a "generous enough " chamber length that will allow about any bullet weight you want to load.
  As far as "what" to shoot in your Dragoon,  you can shoot anything you want in 45C at least up to +p 45C rounds (again  with Kirst cyls).  These revolvers (across the board) are an excellent support system for the cyls as I've been shooting them for many years and ( with new found knowledge) have been shooting  the "muscular" rounds ( that tend to bend "run of the mill" top strap revolvers) in mine for the last year and a half.  If you think you'd like to shoot that type ammo, I would suggest a close tolerance ( arbor out and reinstalled) build.  All mine have shown absolutely NO signs of accelerated  wear  of any kind including the wedges which are perfect. The ot design is far more robust than most will ever understand.  The caveat is, they must be set up as designed. If you're going to stick with  "off the shelf" or tier 1 ammo you still need to correct the arbor length  as a minimum and hold "endshake " to  .003" maximum.
   Use only tier 1 loads in a Howell cylinder.

Mike

Hi. Mike. Thank you for chiming in! That is interesting about the +P. While perusing the Kirst website they have a disclaimer regarding the +P. Stating it should not be used. It sounds like you have had no issues. I suppose they say that about the +P as litigation thing?, like they don't really want to go there. I also noticed that in the videos about cutting the gate he just clamped the frame in a vice and used a couple of files and a dremmel tool.  The way he clamped it in the vice looked as if the arbor was under some stress? Correction here, I'm sorry, I just re-read your post Mike. You said "anything up to +P". Understood. It sounds like you are also partial the the Dragoon as a good candidate for the conversion cylinder. Both my Dragoons are ASM. Does that throw a wrench into the conversion?

[Navy Six]

Zulch, FWIW I bought a couple of Howell cylinders a few years ago for a pair of Uberti 2nd model Dragoons. My experiences:
*Both guns actually shot very close to point of aim with blackpowder 45 Colts. Using percussion cylinders both guns usually shot about 4" low and 2" left.
*With the percussion cylinders timing was pretty good with bolt drop/full cock at almost same time. Howell cylinders both over travelled--hand was still pushing when bolt drop/full cock was achieved. Looking at the back of cylinders revealed ratchet cuts were quite different. It was enough that I found it irritating and didn't see how, in this case I could time the hand to work equally well for each cylinder.
* This is not to imply the Howell cylinders were anything but well made, but I ended up with the percussion cylinders back in the guns.

[Captainkirk]

Tim, I have a Taylor's 6 shot in .45LC on my Remmy Sheriff. Complete drop in with no tinkering. Shoots my .45LC BP handloads very well.
I also have a SS Howell conversion for my Walker, set up by Mike. Very functional but a PITA to reload due to having to pull the barrel. Plus my handloads are wimpy as hell in that gun compared to a 50-60gr load of BP. I wouldn't recommend trying to set up a Colt unless you are well-versed on the open tops. Mike did a terrific job on mine.

[45 Dragoon]

Hi. Mike. Thank you for chiming in! That is interesting about the +P. While perusing the Kirst website they have a disclaimer regarding the +P. Stating it should not be used. It sounds like you have had no issues. I suppose they say that about the +P as litigation thing?, like they don't really want to go there. I also noticed that in the videos about cutting the gate he just clamped the frame in a vice and used a couple of files and a dremmel tool.  The way he clamped it in the vice looked as if the arbor was under some stress? Correction here, I'm sorry, I just re-read your post Mike. You said "anything up to +P". Understood. It sounds like you are also partial the the Dragoon as a good candidate for the conversion cylinder. Both my Dragoons are ASM. Does that throw a wrench into the conversion?

 Hey Z!!  Yes, the "+p" disclaimer is probably because of me.  That said, we have a real good relationship .  .  .
My personal use of that ammo is purely for testing the platform as I know what the parameters of the cyls are. That allows me to SAFELY do that and give "real" results.  Not sure I'll ever find out the MAX platform load but it would tickle me to be able to use mentioned loads above as "normal diet" for these revolvers ( actually I already do, that's what testing is all about!!).
 When opening the recoil shield,  I hold the frame in my hand     !! I start with cutoff wheels and cut out sections  .  .  . that makes things quicker and uses fewer  sanding drums ( then again,  I've done a couple  .  .  . ).



Mike

[Zulch]

Zulch, FWIW I bought a couple of Howell cylinders a few years ago for a pair of Uberti 2nd model Dragoons. My experiences:
*Both guns actually shot very close to point of aim with blackpowder 45 Colts. Using percussion cylinders both guns usually shot about 4" low and 2" left.
*With the percussion cylinders timing was pretty good with bolt drop/full cock at almost same time. Howell cylinders both over travelled--hand was still pushing when bolt drop/full cock was achieved. Looking at the back of cylinders revealed ratchet cuts were quite different. It was enough that I found it irritating and didn't see how, in this case I could time the hand to work equally well for each cylinder.
* This is not to imply the Howell cylinders were anything but well made, but I ended up with the percussion cylinders back in the guns.

Navy Six, thanks for your input. Most appreciated. I noticed that Kirst has a hand available that I suppose is to compensate for over travel of their cylinders? When you were using the Howell cylinders did you shoot BP only or did you ever shoot smokeless in your BP guns? Also, did you find it annoying to have to take the barrel off to reload the cylinder? Did you keep the Howell cylinders or sell them? Thanks again. Z

[Zulch]

Tim, I have a Taylor's 6 shot in .45LC on my Remmy Sheriff. Complete drop in with no tinkering. Shoots my .45LC BP handloads very well.
I also have a SS Howell conversion for my Walker, set up by Mike. Very functional but a PITA to reload due to having to pull the barrel. Plus my handloads are wimpy as hell in that gun compared to a 50-60gr load of BP. I wouldn't recommend trying to set up a Colt unless you are well-versed on the open tops. Mike did a terrific job on mine.

Cap, thank you sir. I guess you found the Howell cylinder to be a PITA.  Did you have to use a modified hand to compensate for over travel or was Mike able to mod the original hand? What about fouling on the back of the cylinder. Dave had mentioned outside of this post that you have to keep that area clean often after running several rounds through it. 

[Zulch]

Hi. Mike. Thank you for chiming in! That is interesting about the +P. While perusing the Kirst website they have a disclaimer regarding the +P. Stating it should not be used. It sounds like you have had no issues. I suppose they say that about the +P as litigation thing?, like they don't really want to go there. I also noticed that in the videos about cutting the gate he just clamped the frame in a vice and used a couple of files and a dremmel tool.  The way he clamped it in the vice looked as if the arbor was under some stress? Correction here, I'm sorry, I just re-read your post Mike. You said "anything up to +P". Understood. It sounds like you are also partial the the Dragoon as a good candidate for the conversion cylinder. Both my Dragoons are ASM. Does that throw a wrench into the conversion?

 

 Hey Z!!  Yes, the "+p" disclaimer is probably because of me.  That said, we have a real good relationship .  .  .
My personal use of that ammo is purely for testing the platform as I know what the parameters of the cyls are. That allows me to SAFELY do that and give "real" results.  Not sure I'll ever find out the MAX platform load but it would tickle me to be able to use mentioned loads above as "normal diet" for these revolvers ( actually I already do, that's what testing is all about!!).
 When opening the recoil shield,  I hold the frame in my hand     !! I start with cutoff wheels and cut out sections  .  .  . that makes things quicker and uses fewer  sanding drums ( then again,  I've done a couple  .  .  . ).



Mike

I guess after having done several guns like this you have found the quickest method to get 'er up n running. HAHAHA Maybe you should do some videos for Walt Kirst?

[Captainkirk]

Tim, I have a Taylor's 6 shot in .45LC on my Remmy Sheriff. Complete drop in with no tinkering. Shoots my .45LC BP handloads very well.
I also have a SS Howell conversion for my Walker, set up by Mike. Very functional but a PITA to reload due to having to pull the barrel. Plus my handloads are wimpy as hell in that gun compared to a 50-60gr load of BP. I wouldn't recommend trying to set up a Colt unless you are well-versed on the open tops. Mike did a terrific job on mine.

Cap, thank you sir. I guess you found the Howell cylinder to be a PITA.  Did you have to use a modified hand to compensate for over travel or was Mike able to mod the original hand? What about fouling on the back of the cylinder. Dave had mentioned outside of this post that you have to keep that area clean often after running several rounds through it.

-
Mike was able to mod the hand to work perfectly with both cylinders Don't ask me how; you'll have to ask him!
I noticed no cylinder fouling at all, as Mike left me with a squeaky-tight .002-.003 cylinder gap that doesn't leave much room for powder deposits to squeeze out!

[Navy Six]

Zulch, yes I found it tedious to remove the cylinder each time in a Colt type. Any other conversion I've done on a Colt I used the Kirst and cut the loading port.
 As for the question about smokeless, I almost fainted thinking about using it.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Zulch,

I couldn't agree more with the rest about the issue of dissasembling the Colt for reloading.
The gated cylinder is definitely the way to go.
As far as going from 6 shot to 5, I messed with one of mine switching parts until I found components that worked.
Then I sent my second Colt conversion to Mike, I can't even begin to say what a guy he is.
I almost got to shoot it at deer camp this year, but my cylinder locked up and I couldn't figure it out.
I sent Mike a text from the deer stand and he called me right back, we hashed out what it could be.
When I got back to camp I checked the revolver and the screw which holds the gate in place had worked loose and was binding on the cylinder.
Of course with the Ramington styled revolver, removing the cylinder is very simple.
On mine I went with the .44 Colt Original, leaving the cartridge straigh in the cylinder and still 6 chambers.
Many have the Howell 6 shot in .45 Colt with the angled chambers, and they seem very happy with them.

They are all fun, AntiqueSledMan.

[Zulch]

A note to all. I modified every post. I apparently started the post misspelling Conversion initially. Sorry about my fumble fingers. Thanks

[Zulch]

Tim, I have a Taylor's 6 shot in .45LC on my Remmy Sheriff. Complete drop in with no tinkering. Shoots my .45LC BP handloads very well.
I also have a SS Howell conversion for my Walker, set up by Mike. Very functional but a PITA to reload due to having to pull the barrel. Plus my handloads are wimpy as hell in that gun compared to a 50-60gr load of BP. I wouldn't recommend trying to set up a Colt unless you are well-versed on the open tops. Mike did a terrific job on mine.

Cap, thank you sir. I guess you found the Howell cylinder to be a PITA.  Did you have to use a modified hand to compensate for over travel or was Mike able to mod the original hand? What about fouling on the back of the cylinder. Dave had mentioned outside of this post that you have to keep that area clean often after running several rounds through it.

-
Mike was able to mod the hand to work perfectly with both cylinders Don't ask me how; you'll have to ask him!
I noticed no cylinder fouling at all, as Mike left me with a squeaky-tight .002-.003 cylinder gap that doesn't leave much room for powder deposits to squeeze out!

Thanks Capt' K. Nice to know that fouling is virtually non existent when setup properly. Did you hear that Mike?? 👍👍

[Zulch]

Zulch, yes I found it tedious to remove the cylinder each time in a Colt type. Any other conversion I've done I've on a Colt I used the Kirst and cut the loading port.
 As for the question about smokeless, I almost fainted thinking about using it.

Navy Six. Roger that on the smokeless. So do you still have one of your Colts fitted with the Kirst? Of the two types, do you prefer the Kirst to the Howell? By the way, if one was to keep the loads light woukd you consider smokeless or just a big no no?