1860 2nd Gen Loading Issues

[Ambaryerno]

 So today I took my 1860 Army out to shoot for the first time. I had four packs of paper cartridges from Buffalo Arms (Hornady round ball and 28 grain powder) and a bag of loose Johnston & Dow conicals. My powder flask was loaded with Goex FFFg, and I had two spouts with me: one for 25 and one for 30 grain.

The paper cartridges loaded and fired no problems at all. They popped in quick and easy, and I had no problem seating them with the lever. However the problem came after I shot through the paper carts and moved on to the conicals.

I loaded with 25 grains of powder, and when I tried to seat the ball it stopped with about a quarter of an inch protruding from the top of the cylinder. It would absolutely not go any further.

After ten or so minutes of digging the ball out (thank you, soft lead) I  thought, "well maybe it's fouling from the paper cartridges." So I ran a bore brush through the cylinder chambers to clean them out a bit and tried again. No luck. The ball sticks about quarter of an inch out, and I'm pulling down on  the lever as far as it will go. At that time I got fed up. A line was queuing at the range, and I didn't have a smaller powder measure with me to try a different load, so I packed up, dug the ball out when I got  back to my car, and came home.

So...what's the deal?

Mine is a Second Generation Colt, not one of the reproductions. My understanding was that the 1860 Army could take up to 30 grains of powder with the Johnston & Dow ball (I believe it was made using the Era's Gone mold). Mesa Winds' cartridge former for the Army is designed for 30 grain with the Johnston & Dow. Cap And Ball's former has a smaller charge, but is still 24 grains of powder (can't believe that 1 grain of powder would make THAT much difference). And there's plenty of videos and blog posts out there of people shooting J&D cartridges loaded with 30 grains of powder.

This is my first time trying to load conicals in a cap and ball revolver (I also have an Armi San Marco 1851 Navy). I didn’t lubricate the ball before loading (I intended to lube the front of the cylinder) so I don’t k is if that would make a difference.

[ShotgunDave]

Welcome to Colt Country Ambaryeno!

I don't have any 2nd Gen Colts. But my Pietta 1860 Army's will take 30 grains of FFFg and a J&D conical with no problem. I even load them in paper cartridges.

Did you acquire the gun new? Or did you get it second hand?

The reason I ask is, maybe someone prior to you owning it, modified something. Maybe the rammer has been shortened for some unknown reason.

Would it be possible to load the cylinder off the gun? That would tell you right away if 30gr and a conical will fit or not.

[Ambaryerno]

The gun was bought second-hand. While it was used, the seller gave no indication about it having been modified in any way. One of my thoughts was whether the rammer was shortened, but like I said, it had no problem with the round balls.

I just measured it and the rammer is about 2" long overall.

I don't currently have a loader to try the cylinder off the gun.

[Hawg]

That doesn't make sense. Even tho the 2nd gens were finished and fit by Colt they're still made from repro parts supplied by Uberti and 30 grains with a J&D bullet should work just fine. If the pre made ones worked the rest should have worked also. Maybe you weren't putting enough effort into seating them?

[Ambaryerno]

I know it doesn't make sense, that's why I'm posting. ;-) I put as much force into the lever as I physically could.

I can try loading it when I get home now that I had a chance to do a complete cleaning to make sure it wasn't just because the cylinder was really fouled, (like I said, I'd previously put four packs of round ball cartridges from Buffalo Arms through it before I tried switching to the loose conicals) but I'd rather not have to deal with a stuck bullet if it fails again.

And to repeat a question from before: I did NOT pre-lubricate the bullet before trying to load; I'd intended to apply lube to the face of the cylinder after loading instead. Could applying lube to the ball make a different when trying to seat it?

[mazo kid]

Hmmm., if you are able to load a round ball load that tells me the rammer is not too short. Now, what about those J-D bullets? What are they cast from? You said soft lead, but is it really? Are you saying that the J-D bullets are too long? That they are bottoming out in the cylinder? Or are they too big in diameter? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Ambaryerno]

According to the manufacturer's site they're pure lead and the max diameter is .460. I don't know if they bottomed or for some combination of fouling and/or diameter they wouldn't seat any deeper, just that after pulling the loading lever as far as I physically could they were still protruding from the front of the cylinder.

[ShotgunDave]

I just measured mine, and they are indeed .460 diameter. Very strange that they'd fit in a Pietta but not a Colt.

I'll be interested to hear if they fit after your thorough cleaning of the cylinder.

[Ambaryerno]

I just measured mine, and they are indeed .460 diameter. Very strange that they'd fit in a Pietta but not a Colt.

I'll be interested to hear if they fit after your thorough cleaning of the cylinder.

I'll give it a shot (so to speak). If it doesn't work without lubing the ball first I'll try a second that way. If it loads I guess I can leave the cylinder loaded without a cap and will be ready for the next time I shoot. If I end up stuck is there a better way of getting the ball out of the cylinder than to dig it out in pieces with a screwdriver? I'd thought of getting a ball puller attachment for my cleaning rod, but these things fit so tight I'm not sure if that would even budge it.

[mike116]

If the bullet gets stuck then spin a drywall screw into the center of the bullet and pull it out with a pair of pliers.
30 grains of fffg and a JD conical takes a lot of pressure to get it to fit in my Uberti 1860.    It won't fit if I add a lube cookie or a wad.   30 grains and a JD conical fits in my Pietta 1860 easier.   I think you may want to compare your powder flask spout to some other 30 grain measuring devices to see how it compares.

[Ambaryerno]

If the bullet gets stuck then spin a drywall screw into the center of the bullet and pull it out with a pair of pliers.
30 grains of fffg and a JD conical takes a lot of pressure to get it to fit in my Uberti 1860.    It won't fit if I add a lube cookie or a wad.   30 grains and a JD conical fits in my Pietta 1860 easier.   I think you may want to compare your powder flask spout to some other 30 grain measuring devices to see how it compares.

I'd actually tried that yesterday. I ended up snapping the screw in half instead.

And like I said mine got stuck just trying to load with 25 grain (as far as I can tell the measure was correct). As far as lubing the round, I don't mean a cookie or wad, but smearing lube on the outside.

[mike116]

I was only saying that a JD and 30 grains won't fit in my Uberti cylinder along with a wad or lube cookie.  I'm saying that there is not enough room in the cylinder.   I am not refering to lubing your bullet to in order to load it.

[mazo kid]

You might want to remove the cylinder and then the nipple on the offending chamber. Use a brass rod that just fits through the nipple hole and tap out the stuck bullet. Measure the length of the J-D bullet and then the depth of the chamber to see what your max powder charge can be. That will remove any doubt if the bullet is bottoming out.

[Ambaryerno]

So, I tried it again tonight. 30 grains FFFg (using the spout I bought from Track of the Wolf). I also lubed the ball first. I rammed it as far as I could, until I physically couldn't apply any more pressure to the lever. This is the result:



30 grains FFFg almost completely filled the cylinder before I seated the ball.

This is what the inside of one of the chambers looks like:

You might want to remove the cylinder and then the nipple on the offending chamber. Use a brass rod that just fits through the nipple hole and tap out the stuck bullet.

Will doing that that work with the powder between the hole and the back of the bullet?

Measure the length of the J-D bullet and then the depth of the chamber to see what your max powder charge can be. That will remove any doubt if the bullet is bottoming out.

The problem is what the max powder charge SHOULD be, and with a J&D it SHOULD be 30 grain. That's already been corroborated here.

[Hawg]

(as far as I can tell the measure was correct).

As far as you can tell. Did you check it against a powder measure or assuming it was real bp weigh it?