38 Colt conversion cylinder for 1851

[ssb73q]

Hi, today I am supposed to receive a new Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder (bought from Taylors) to be used in my new Pietta 36 1851. Using conversion cylinder in my Colts never has a cap sucking jam. Getting prepared to shoot the 1851 with 38 Special wadcutters is becoming an adventure. I already have over 500 38 Special loaded with Laser Cast 148gr wadcutters and TrailBoss powder, but a bit concerned that the hard lead of the Laser Cast bullets may not offer enough hollow base expansion to properly fill the rifling of the 36 caliber 1851 bore. I now have on order 500 Speer pure lead 148gr hollow base wadcutters that should work well. 38 Special with heeled .375 bullets are the more ideal projectile, but I can't find any crimp die that would work for heeled bullets.

I will report back what I learn running down this new adventure.

Regards,
Richard

[StrawHat]

A crimping die for heel base bullets can be made from a pair of wire stripping pliers.  Find one with a suitable sized hole, preferably a bit smaller and open it up to where it will just encircle the case when squeezed.  It will take a bit of trial and error but it has been done in the past.  Also, Lee Precision has custom made them for the 41 Colt, perhaps they will make one for your cartridge.

[ssb73q]

Hi StrawHat, thanks for the suggestion. A step requiring hand crimping leaves me a bit cold.

After posting that I had over 500 wadcutters already loaded, I realized that none of them are hollow based. I will need to load up some of the Speer hollow base wadcutters I have on order to use the conversion cylinder if any accuracy is expected.

Did I say this was an adventure? 

Regards,
Richard

[StrawHat]

That is the problem with the conversion cylinders that are self installed, they rarely match the bore.  The idea is flawed from the start.  Modern shooters want convenience and cheap $$ so instead of buying a converted revolver from the factory that has the correct bore/chamber dimensions, they buy a C&B revolve and convert it themselves.  You can line the bore to .358 but most drop in gunsmiths don't do that.  Perhaps you could buy a barrel from a parts dealer that has the correct size bore.

Another option would be to buy a cylinder chamber for the 41 Long Colt and use .386 lead bullets.  These swage down to the bore nad shoot well.  Once you get dies, brass and a mold, reloading is no different than any other "modern" (non heeled) cartridge.

[ssb73q]

Hi StrawHat, the .38 Colt conversion cylinder did arrive and looks very good. It was no surprise that I will need to do some timing tweaking (shorten the hand a few thousands) to have it work properly. For the same reason that turning an 1851 into a .44 caliber that's not historic, turning a .36 (~0.375" bore) into an ~0.357" bore is uninteresting to me. Colts retained the bore of their .36 caliber guns at 0.38 until the late 1800s. I like the idea of shooting .36 cap and ball while occasionally running the gun with .38 Special. Howell offers a service of relining an ~0.375" bore to ~0.357" for ~$80.

I agree with you that if someone wants a .38 Special converted handgun, the best and lowest cost option is to by a factory converted revolver.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, a little stoning of the Pietta .36 1851 hand to shorten it a few thousands did the trick. Both the cap and ball and 38 Colt conversion cylinder now work well in the revolver, the timing perfect. The exit throat diameter of the Howell 38 Colt conversion cylinder measures 0.374". That got me wondering if I could use a semi-fixed ammunition, drop a 0.375" ball in each chamber and have powder secured in a shortened 38 Special case. The wad holding the powder in the shell could be a lubricated wad. I'll only explore this option if the .358" hollow based wadcutters give poor accuracy.

I received 500 Speer 148gr hollow base wadcutters yesterday and found a little over 100 38 Special brass that I will load with 2.7gr of TrailBoss powder today for testing.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, I loaded up 150 rounds of .38 Special cases with Speer 148gr hollow base .358" wadcutters and 2.7gr of TrailBoss powder. Went out back and fired 50 of those loaded rounds from 25yds at my steel targets using the Howell conversion cylinder and my new Pietta .36 1851 Navy. The groups shot ~5" high at 25yds, groups were ~3.5". Is this round target quality? No. Are they suitable shooting steel targets at my range, absolutely!

The hollow base goes ~3/4 of the way up center of the wadcutter. I fired one round through some thin boards so I could recover a fired bullet. Interesting that the engraved rifling on the bullet is slightly longer than 3/4 of the bullet length. These Speer wadcutters do indeed bump up in diameter to fill a good portion of the bullet length with strong rifling. This loading is mild shooting, not much more recoil than shooting .22s. Each of the spent shells dropped easily out of the conversion cylinder and the sides of the brass were clean showing that there is sufficient pressure to seal the chambers.

I'm happy.

Regards,
Richard

[mazo kid]

Richard, I have read that black powder loads will bump up hollow base bullets better than smokeless powder. It seems that your loads are working some what well though. I only shoot BP in my 36 conversion cylinders.

[ssb73q]

Richard, I have read that black powder loads will bump up hollow base bullets better than smokeless powder. It seems that your loads are working some what well though. I only shoot BP in my 36 conversion cylinders.

Hi mazo, what bullets do you use with your .36 conversion cylinders?

The Speer bullets that I used has some kind of dry lube on the bullet. On cleaning the barrel and cylinder I couldn't find a trace of any leading. That suggests that the lube on these pure lead wadcutters works pretty well.

BTW, before I went shooting a Wolff reduced power mainspring was installed in the Pietta 1851 Navy. Besides creating a nice light trigger pull, it also minimizes conversion cylinder firing pin end mushrooming. That $170 Cabelas special 1851 Navy is now very slick in operation.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, I found an internet reference that suggests that the Lee Precision 90828 38 Remington die can be modified to crimp heeled based bullets on 38 Colt (and 38 Special if a short bullet). I ordered a new 90838 die from eBay to give this a try. I may even order some 38 Colt brass to ensure that heeled bullets will fit. Comparing the .358 hbwc against .385 heeled bullets for accuracy will be interesting.

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

Hi, IMO I may have pushed too many buy buttons. Ordered a few hundred 38 Long Colt brass, a Lee 38 Colt die set, and a 35 Remington factory crimp die to convert to 38 Colt heeled bullets. I have an extra die plate and powder measure for my Lee press. Found a source for heeled bullets, but learned that they may be too long for the 38 Long Colt. Since almost all of the heeled bullet is outside the case, the shorter 38 (short) Colt case may be required. The 38 Colt is already such a puny round that trying to load heeled bullets in the 38 Colt is a fool's errand. Since the hollow base .358 Speer wadcutter in 38 Special cases works reasonably well, why bother with heeled bullets?

My new $170 Pietta 1851 sure got expensive fast!!

Regards,
Richard

[mike116]

My new $170 Pietta 1851 sure got expensive fast!!

Regards,
Richard

Maybe so but just think how frustration and money you saved others.  I have a '51 Navy I have been thinking about converting.  Either that or buying a '51 Richards/Mason conversion.   Now I have the information to make an informed decision.   Thanks.

[ssb73q]

My new $170 Pietta 1851 sure got expensive fast!!

Regards,
Richard

Maybe so but just think how frustration and money you saved others.  I have a '51 Navy I have been thinking about converting.  Either that or buying a '51 Richards/Mason conversion.   Now I have the information to make an informed decision.   Thanks.

Hi Mike, all the .36 Colt revolvers produced until the very late 1800s used a bore that requires an ~0.375" bullet. If you want to keep such a revolver historic then use 38 0.357 hbwc bullet with the conversion cylinder. IMO if a lined 0.357" barrel seems interesting, just buy a 38 Special or 357 revolver. The Speer 148gr hollow based wadcutters seem to work well with the 38 Special case in the historic 0.375" bore revolver.  If you don't handload, I believe that the Sellier & Bellot 148gr 38 Special use a hollow base bullet. I found a box of those Sellier & Bellot in my ammo dump and will give them a try the next time weather permits and report back.

Some day if I'm really bored to death and not having any other firearm project, I may try loading up some heeled bullets.

Edit: I pulled the bullet from a Sellier & Bellot 148gr wadcutter 38 Special and it does indeed have a hollow base. The hollow base extends 1/2 the bullet length. The Speer 148gr hbwc hollow base extends ~3/4 of the bullet length. It will be interesting to see if that hollow base length difference makes much of a difference for accuracy.

Regards,
Richard

[StrawHat]

Crimping dies for the 38 Colt are available here.

http://cartridgeconversion.com/RELOADING.php

[ssb73q]

Crimping dies for the 38 Colt are available here.

http://cartridgeconversion.com/RELOADING.php

Hi StrawHat, IMO that's the Lee 35 Remington Factory Crimp Die with a special made adapter to hold the 38 Colt brass at the correct height for crimping. The modification of the conversion cylinder to take 41 Colt that would allow the use of ~0.380" bullets seems interesting, but have you seen the price for 41 Colt brass?

Regards,
Richard