Conversion Cylinders

[45 Dragoon]

I am well aware of those definitions G Dog. It’s true that if I were to fire off my black powder cap and ball revolver in my backyard, I could be arrested for for firing a firearm in a residential area, city limits, etc. Plus in many states, felons are not allowed to possess a muzzle loading gun. All I was stating was the basic Federal laws regarding muzzle loaders. And that even pertains to California with some of the strictest guns laws in the country. If one alters the frame of a cap and ball revolver by cutting a loading port, it becomes a firearm even without a conversion cylinder in place.

I agree with you BC.

Hi, a few comment on conversion cylinders from an idiot amateur gunsmith. If you are doing a gated conversion for the 1851 use the Howell conversion cylinder that has the backplate screwed in. The Kirst 1860 gated conversion cylinder for the 1860 is a box of worms. That backplate floats where getting a good barrel gap is difficult. All manufactured drop in conversion cylinders work well. IMO start with drop in conversion cylinders and avoid creating a regulated firearm. This idiot will now go back to sleep.

Regards,
Richard

  Sorry  Richard,  I'll have to say  .  .  .  . nope!! Lol !!  Whether  the conversion ring/plate is "mounted" or not has absolutely no bearing  on the  "barrel/cyl  gap"  ( endshake) of the setup.  The ratchet teeth limit the rearward movement of the cylinder and the forcing cone  limits the  forward movement. That means,  the endshake can be set without the conversion plate even installed!! So, the "setting" of anything is the "headspace".
  I do that by reducing  ( if /as needed) the recoil shield  that the conversion ring backs up  against. That gives you more headspace  while leaving the cylinder in exactly the same place.  If you need less headspace,  reducing the ratchet teeth will close it down.

 The biggest "detractor" for the "drop in" with  removable backplate  is the lack of support for the cartridge backing up against it. A separate ring or plate is a better support structure for the cartridge to back up against. I doubt the "drop in " would be able to handle +p ammo.

Mike

[Captainkirk]

So far as the statement goes, it
is true that percussion non-fixed ammo
revolvers are not considered firearms.

Unfortunately, not true in the left-libtard blue state I live in.
Any BP weapon is considered a 'firearm' and requires the same 3 day waiting period that your Glock would, including shipping to/from a valid FFL for sale or purchase and the owner must possess a valid FOID card to own, handle or transport.

[Hawg]

Any BP weapon is considered a 'firearm' and requires the same 3 day waiting period that your Glock would, including shipping to/from a valid FFL for sale or purchase and the owner must possess a valid FOID card to own, handle or transport.

It's not that bad here. You don't have to go through an FFL to buy one but the state does see them as much a weapon as any modern firearm and all other firearm rules apply. Fortunately it's a pretty lax state where firearms are concerned. As long as you're 18 you can have a loaded gun in your car. You can open or concealed carry without a license but the places you can concealed carry without one are limited. A felon can't own one or hunt with one.

[ssb73q]

Hi, a few comment on conversion cylinders from an idiot amateur gunsmith. If you are doing a gated conversion for the 1851 use the Howell conversion cylinder that has the backplate screwed in. The Kirst 1860 gated conversion cylinder for the 1860 is a box of worms. That backplate floats where getting a good barrel gap is difficult.

Richard, good afternoon. Thank you for your comments. That is very interesting, your comment on the Kirst for the 1860. You obviously speak from experience on the Kirst/1860. The backplate floats meaning the backplate is not mounted? I have never used Kirst nor a Howell conversion. Thanks again, Z

Hi Zulch, I do have some experience converting BP revolvers to gated conversions. The main issue for the floating Kirst backplate is that with a small barrel/cylinger gap the floating backplate catches the edge of the cartridge rim. 45 Colt cartridge specs give a wide case dimension range that also hurts a set-up. I also have drop in conversion cylinders for my over 50 BP revolvers with the exception of the Paterson's. Photo of some of my gated conversions, including some .22s:

Regards,
Richard

[ssb73q]

So far as the statement goes, it
is true that percussion non-fixed ammo
revolvers are not considered firearms.
But that’s true only for very limited and narrow  purposes.  The categories are so narrow that it’s misleading and inaccurate to to call them ‘not firearms’. Shipping, background checks and
waiting periods are about the only delimiters. 

Convicted felons, minors, those adjudicated insane, druggies, some prescription holders, brandishing, carrying (concealed or open, loaded or otherwise), enhancements for use in committing
a crime, negligent entrustment, state storage requirements, domestic violence, red flag laws and on and on.

They are  ‘firearms’ for a lot more purposes than they are considered not to be.  Calling them ‘not firearms’ doesn’t begin to describe the whole reality.

Hi G Dog, IMO the issue is if a firearm is ATF regulated. BP C&B revolvers aren't ATF regulated. However, modify a C&B revolver to accept cartridges and it now become ATF regulated. Cutting a loading gate opening into the revolver constitutes a conversion. Here in New York State anyone can own a BP revolver as long as they don't have the ability to shoot it. If one has projectiles, powder, and caps, that revolver owner must have a pistol permit with that revolver listed. My pistol permit looks like the Manhattan phone directory. vbg

Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Hi Zulch, I do have some experience converting BP revolvers to gated conversions. The main issue for the floating Kirst backplate is that with a small barrel/cylinger gap the floating backplate catches the edge of the cartridge rim. 45 Colt cartridge specs give a wide case dimension range that also hurts a set-up. I also have drop in conversion cylinders for my over 50 BP revolvers with the exception of the Paterson's. Photo of some of my gated conversions, including some .22s:

Regards,
Richard
[/quote]

  Come on Richard,  a rim catching on an edge is hardly a can of worms  lol!!  It goes without saying that all leading edges that COULD  snag a rim should be broken  .  .  .  that's true even on Mod. P '73 copies. There's loading gate edges, recoil shield edges ( just past the gate)  and often times the "rise to battery" step on the recoil shield at about 10 o'clock.  That's hardly a "box of worms".  The given headspace for 45C is .062" which is what I set it to. The main trick that I've learned is starting with a square (trued) surface on the recoil shield.  That in turn gives you a good measure for headspace with no "tight spots".  Almost all recoil shields are "proud" on the left side ( non - gate side) which will obviously transfer to the conversion ring/plate when installed.  Of course I remove and reinstall the arbor  (heavily torqued ) before I clean up the recoil shield surface. I also prefer 2 fingered hands rather than the original single finger hand. Walt  sells them or typically i make my own.
    Colt o.t.  revolvers such as "factory conversions" and the '72 Open Top come with a bushing/gas ring which allows you to set up a "no perceived" endshake along with a definite b/c gap tailored to smokeless or BP loads  .  .  .   you can get as far into the weeds as you want!!!

So, a "problem" that would be found in any SA can be found in a conversion and therefore be addressed.

Mike

[ssb73q]

Hi Mike, as I already said I am an idiot amateur gunsmith, but do have some experience in doing the Kirst 1860 conversion. Since I experienced difficulty, I recommend that anyone wanting a gated Kirst 1860 conversion that they have you do that conversion. Over the years I wondered that if I had just removed all the sharp edges from the Kirst floating back plate that my issues would not have occurred.

BTW, part of the enjoyments of doing gunsmith oneself is the knowledge gained. Also, many times the drop in conversion cylinders require some work, either conversion cylinder has length issues, or hand modification requirements. However, once set up, a conversion is as reliable as the original C&B.

Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Richard,  I know  you're pulling all the new folks leg !!! 
You and I posted about all thus stuff years ago and we all know you're no "idiot amateur gunsmith " ( nice try!!    )
The thing is, this stuff is a full-time learning process (nobody knows it all) especially when the manufacturers  make "insignificant changes" that are anything but !!!  So, we gotta change with um and that means we need to lean on everyone that has some insight.  You definitely have that and that's beneficial to all!!
 Thanks Richard,  I appreciate ya but I ain't doin all them conversions!!!     But I do like testing  the boundaries!!

Mike

[ssb73q]

Oh Mike, please let other's enjoy my humility as an idiot amateur gunsmith. To be serious here, I encourage anyone that isn't a total fool to use your gunsmithing services. There is nothing worst than destroying a beautiful BP firearm with incompetent work. You and I go round and round, but I have never discounted your professional competence working on BP firearms. You will always have my respect.

Fond Regards,
Richard

[45 Dragoon]

Right back atcha Richard!!
Thank you !!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Well, Richard might be an ameteur, but he has sure made some beautiful conversions.

As for Mike, he is definitely a master and has earned my respect.

And I am very proud to be able to call both of these guys my friend.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Zulch]

 Reading all the comments here, there seem to be exceptions and or caveats (of sorts?) from state to state concerning classification of Black Powder guns? For example, I read the Georgia laws concerning how much black powder one is legally allowed to have in their possession in the state of GA. As best as I could decipher the rhetoric enclosed in the document, I am still skeptical if not cynical about it's content. Bottom line for me is it seems it is better to err on the side of caution.

[Zulch]

Hi Zulch, I do have some experience converting BP revolvers to gated conversions. The main issue for the floating Kirst backplate is that with a small barrel/cylinger gap the floating backplate catches the edge of the cartridge rim. 45 Colt cartridge specs give a wide case dimension range that also hurts a set-up. I also have drop in conversion cylinders for my over 50 BP revolvers with the exception of the Paterson's. Photo of some of my gated conversions, including some .22s:

Regards,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard,
   Thank you for posting the pictures. You have quite a collection to say the least. IIRC, you had actually attached a document on another thread listing all your BP guns a long while back which I believe most likely did resemble a Manhattan phone book? Very impressive indeed. Do you actually shoot all of them at some point during a given year? I only have about 12 myself and I have a hard time shooting what I have. Z

[45 Dragoon]

Has anybody ever suggested getting us a "like " button  ?!!
 

Thanks ASM !

Mike

[Captainkirk]

Has anybody ever suggested getting us a "like " button  ?!!

Mike

Yes. Tom has tried. Apparently a more expensive software package is needed. We can bring back the karma button but with 'good karma' comes 'bad karma' as well. We don't need that nonsense.